[Patrick_Mucci]

Many claim that the green on # 6 at Riviera as one of the most strategic, unusual greens in golf.

If that's the case, why hasn't that green been duplicated more often.

It's true that it's unique and beguiling.

Plenty of strategy, a greens within green concept.

Why haven't more architects crafted duplicates ?

Or, is that green/hole deemed unfair by today's golfers

[Bruce Wellmon]

I played there in 2005, but isn't there one at Doonbeg, Ireland by Greg Norman?

[Tom Huckaby]

I'd say it's deemed to be gimmicky, by designers and players alike; more than unfair.  It's also a huge maintenance risk as one sure doesn't want to many people playing lob wedges from one side to the other (which too many would try to do when faced with the shot).

That being said, there is one at THE RANCH AT SILVER CREEK, (San Jose, CA), which may well be among the bottom 10 worst courses on this planet....

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
Because it's silly? ....and a potential pain in the butt to maintain.  

[CJ Carder]

While I happen to think it's a really cool feature, I'll throw out a few thoughts:

1.  The maintenance difficulty is likely the main issue.  In addition to what Huck said about the lob wedges, I'd also add in other minor issues probably like drainage, washout, mowing annoyances, etc.  You're also reducing the effective size of the green so there's more concentrated footprints.  Probably one of the reasons most courses have larger greens than they used to as well.

2.  I saw where, I think it was Justin Rose, missed on the complete opposite side of the bunker from the Sunday flag.  While the announcers were quick to point out (and Justin ultimately wound up taking that route) the slope of the green allowing for the option of putting and still getting it within 8 feet, I would wager that most amateurs wouldn't have the first clue to look at that.  As a result, it would be dismissed as gimmicky, when I think subtle genius is a more apt phrase.

3.  Relating to that, and playing devil's advocate, isn't golf hard enough without putting a bunker in the middle of a green?  Don't all golf teachers preach to simply aim at the center of the green as a way to reduce the scores?  How frustrated would you be as a weekend warrior to absolutely smoke a 5-iron right at the dead middle of the green only to have it go in a bunker?  Again, I'm playing devil's advocate because I happen to like the enhanced focus required on such a hole and the fact that "rub of the green" (basically) can leave you with a poor lie after a well struck shot.

CJ

[jonathan_becker]

Patrick,

I was just thinking about this as well.  Take Anthony Kim as an example.  This past weekend he hits his shot into the sod above the bunker on #6 and it takes a dozen hands to find the ball.  Now, if I remember correctly, he found his ball and got it up and down, but originally his tee shot was well struck and would have found the putting surface on any other green.  

Did he get screwed on the tee shot or is it unfair?  I'm not sure.  But the reality is that like it or not, it's a part of the hole....and a player has to take responsibility for a shot at the center of this green.  

It's one of the few holes in golf that playing for the middle may hurt you!  

As for why it hasn't been duplicated, my guess like the others would be maintenance.

[Wade Whitehead]

It might be like 17 at Sawgrass: The first time, it's genius or creativity.  After that it's a copy or gimmick.

WW

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I prefer the 12th @ Forsgate CC(Banks) in NJ- the Horsehoe green:

[jonathan_becker]

It might be like 17 at Sawgrass: The first time, it's genius or creativity.  After that it's a copy or gimmick.

WW

Well said.  I was just thinking the same thing.  

[JC Jones]

Because it is a dumb hole.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I see absolutely no strategy or genius in that green.

[Chris_Clouser]

I'm with JC on this.  If Muirhead was the first to design such a green it would be labeled a disaster.  But because it was George Thomas, one of the Golden Age geniuses, it gets labeled as great.  Because we know nothing they could do would ever be bad let alone awful.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC & Chris,

Have you each played the hole ?

[Mike Nuzzo]

I saw a picture of the new TPC in San Antonio that a bunker in the middle....

[Jim Colton]

Doesn't the 10th hole at Dismal River have a bunker in the middle of the green?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Is this the hole?
 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Hopefully the golf world will be happy that there are now three such holes, and not feel the need to produce anymore. 

[Anthony Fowler]

I have not played it, but I like the hole and concept.  It would be ridiculous to complain that you were penalized for hitting it in the middle of the green, because that is the last place you should be aiming.  With a bunker in the middle, the "effective green" is much smaller than it appears.  You should be playing for the section of the green that gives you a clear putt, and if you miss you pay the price.  If anything, you would rather miss the green altogether than be on the wrong side of the green.  This means that the hole will be play dramatically different from day to day depending on the location of the pin.  The versatility of the hole and the degree that it forces the player to carefully plan his/her shot makes it a great hole.  Why would you want a hole that allows you to just wail away at the center of the green every time.  You could make the same critique about 7 at Ballyneal (or 9 at Yale for that matter) that a player might be penalized for hitting the middle of the green.  However, I think that green complex is great for many of the same reasons.  I doubt that everyone has the same feeling toward that hole.

With that being said, I think an overuse of this might come across as gimmicky.  There are other ways to generate versatility, variety, and strategy with a green complex, and no architect should overuse one particular approach.

[Chris_Clouser]

Patrick,

No I have not played the hole, but I have seen it first hand.  I just agreed with JC.  There is no strategy that I can tell.  It is basically a hole that requires a precise shot to wherever the pin is located.  Even if the pin is in front, the kikuyu eliminates almost any shot from bouncing on.

Ignoring the possible maintenance problems mentioned on here, what is the strategic merit of the hole?  I can see if you say the purpose of the hole is to test the precision of a player and his irons, but that isn't really strategic because there are no options. 

I still stand by my statement about why it is seen as a "great" hole by many on here. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

As to "strategic", don't limit your view to the shot to the green, think about the recovery options should you miss your quadrant, and which ones you might prefer.

You need to play the hole a few times in order to better understand it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Oh No ! now there's 4.

Northwick Park, 205 yard opener dubbed "Riviera"



....and the Coca-Cola:

[Sean_A]

Patrick,

No I have not played the hole, but I have seen it first hand.  I just agreed with JC.  There is no strategy that I can tell.  It is basically a hole that requires a precise shot to wherever the pin is located.  Even if the pin is in front, the kikuyu eliminates almost any shot from bouncing on.

Ignoring the possible maintenance problems mentioned on here, what is the strategic merit of the hole?  I can see if you say the purpose of the hole is to test the precision of a player and his irons, but that isn't really strategic because there are no options. 

I still stand by my statement about why it is seen as a "great" hole by many on here. 

Chris

Wouldn't agree that on a few holes per game, as part of an overall diverse course, one should have to hit a few shots (through no fault of the golfer) which can cause some consternation?  What fascinates me about the hole in question is the do or DON'T die nature of it.  I like this sort hole where the successful shot is hugely rewarded yet the failed shot still isn't out of the game.  To me, this is part and parcel of strategy if we look at courses in their entirity - as a whole rather in parts.  That isn't to say true do or die holes don't have their place either, they do and I contend they add to the overall strategy of the course.  The issue is more about the balance of this sort of stuff against the option type golf.  I admit that championship golf tend to go more toward overly penal and imo the architecture suffers for it.  But to find this sort of hole on a championship is very, very good news so far as I am concerned.

Ciao  

[Adam Clayman]

Gauging the masses that play Bayside here in Nebraska, the concept is certainly not met with disdain. Most even think it cool and unique, not really sure if they've ever heard of Riviera.

Since it was Dan and Dave who did that one, and Chris Cochran who did the one at Dismal River, I would put forth that the concept works, but the implementation is the key. Par usuale'

Cochran's is too big without enough opportunities to use side walls to get around it, creatively, from almost every possible location on the circumference.

I'm not a fan of the uber hairy rough on the immediate surrounds on the center bunker. The "Aussie look" or, allowing the bunker to have a gathering aspect, would seem to be the ideal, completing the concept, justifying it's placement..

[Kyle Henderson]

I have sampled the examples previously mentioned so far: The 6th at Riviera, the 10th at Dismal River, and the 15th at The Ranch.

While I actually enjoyed playing all three holes, but the contours of the green at Riviera clearly raise it above its imitators, IMHO.

I certainly prefer the central bunker concept to the more frequently-copied 17th hole at TPC Sawgrass.

[Mike Hendren]

Love Design Group placed a small pot bunker in one of their greens on The Origins Course.  It is deceptive because the hole and green are flat.  That said, it's a blast to play, as is the entire 6/9/12 hole course.  By comparison, Riviera's 6th stands out because of the brilliant contouring. 

I like it, sparingly.

[JC Jones]

JC & Chris,

Have you each played the hole ?

Pat,

I've played it 104 times in every possible wind direction and it still sucks.

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