[Marty Bonnar]

Is it the smallest green in Tournament Golf?

Anyone know just how small/big it is?

Whatever, it's marvellous.

cheers,
FBD,

PS BIG shoutout to Sky TV tonight. One of the announcers ACTUALLY mentioned GCT in the telecast. Maybe Architecture's time has actually come. 'Golf Architecture in America': obligatory reading for any right-minded (oxymoron) GCAer

[Bill_McBride]

If it's not the smallest it's certainly the most tantalizing.......

You gotta love Jim Murray (late longtime dean of L.A. sportswriters) on the temptations of #10:

“This is a shameless little harlot that just sits at the end of the bar in mesh stockings and a mini-skirt just waiting for you."

I don't think it's over 4000 SF, deeper than wide for sure, with a deadly fall off behind that takes errant tee shots pretty far down the slope.  I stood there for an hour watching groups go through at last year's tournament.  It was fascinating to see the variety of ways the pros could fail to make birdie!

[Tom_Doak]

I should know that, and I don't.

My best guess would be that it's only 30-35 feet wide and about 90 feet long.  That's not the smallest green in the world, but the combination of narrowness and tilt (it tilts a bit to the left) makes it pretty hard to hit from the right 2/3 of the fairway.

[Jonathan Cummings]

In PGA tournament golf it's gotta be the smallest.  R #10 is simply a fabulous short par 4 but I think it and all others will forever be in the limelight of the 8th at PVGC - simply the best short 4 in all of golf.  J

[Marty Bonnar]

Unc,
thanks for reminding me that Riv 10 is the (in)famous Harlot! Very nice Murray-ism.

Tom,
It's REALLY noticeable how a group of players/caddies/scorers/sundry hangers-on just absolutely FILL the green surface. You're quoted as saying it's the "flattest great hole you've seen". Still true? Was it better un-bunkered??? Will we ever know?

best,
FBD.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Looks to be ca. 3,140sqft.

[Pat Burke]

I should know that, and I don't.

My best guess would be that it's only 30-35 feet wide and about 90 feet long.  That's not the smallest green in the world, but the combination of narrowness and tilt (it tilts a bit to the left) makes it pretty hard to hit from the right 2/3 of the fairway.

Google Earth measurements agree Tom.  About 28 feet wide at back 1/3          30+ at middle    bit wider in front 1/3
close to 100 feet length
Well done!

[Jeff Fortson]

The brilliance of #10 IMO is that the width of options on the tee shot allows a golfer to choose whether he wants a long, narrow green to hit an approach to or a short, wide one.  The cant of the green is also genius, which falls away and slightly left from you if you took a direct line towards the green from the tee.  The further left and long you hit it off the tee, the less the green falls away from you and in certain cases actually lets you approach to a green that slopes towards you.

In my mind it is the best par 4 in golf.


JF

P.S.  That Jim Murray quote is priceless and accurate.

[Kyle Henderson]

For comparison, how large is the "2 or 20" hole at Engineers?

[Tom_Doak]

I should know that, and I don't.

My best guess would be that it's only 30-35 feet wide and about 90 feet long.  That's not the smallest green in the world, but the combination of narrowness and tilt (it tilts a bit to the left) makes it pretty hard to hit from the right 2/3 of the fairway.

Google Earth measurements agree Tom.  About 28 feet wide at back 1/3          30+ at middle    bit wider in front 1/3
close to 100 feet length
Well done!

Pat:

When I worked for Pete Dye, he said to me one time (when I was headed overseas) that it would be a good idea to know the dimensions and elevation changes of some classic holes.  He said that when somebody questioned your design, if you could tell them that the 11th at St. Andrews had four feet of fall from back to front [and your hole that they were criticizing had less than that], it would shut them up.

So when I went to Britain, I made sure to find out the dimensions of some of the more famous and controversial holes.  I was surprised to find that the most controversial holes shared a common dimension ... the Road green at St. Andrews, the ninth at Ballybunion, and several others paced off at between 40 and 45 feet across.  With a long club in your hands, that's hard to hit.

I know I have paced off the tenth green at Riv, but I couldn't remember the results.  I do remember that it was less than ten paces wide at the back ... which, according to the old rule of thumb that the cup should not be cut less than five paces from the edge of the green, is problematic.

[Tom_Doak]

Kyle:

I would guess the "two or twenty" hole is about the same width -- 25 to 30 feet.  It also tilts toward the back, making it even harder to hit.

[Tim Bert]

To help put things in perspective for someone that has not played Riviera, but has played Pebble Beach... What is the smallest sq. foot green at Pebble (roughly speaking?)  I'm trying to get a sense for how much smaller #10 is given how small some of the greens at Pebble felt to me.

[Kevin Pallier]

I would have thought that the Postage Stamp may be up there re: the smallest green in Tournament golf ?

I loved the 10th at Riviera - my favourite on the course. It teases you to go for it....

[Jon Spaulding]

For comparison, how large is the "2 or 20" hole at Engineers?

Miniscule. Like so many other things in our collective lives.

Unfortunately the hole is out of the 18 hole rotation, and has no impact on one's score or match.

The sphincter factor on the hole is inspired. I would estimate the green is 10% smaller than 10 at Riviera, with less pinnable area, and a longer shot (120 yards versus zero-whatever yardage at Riviera). Also, you cannot create the preferred angle unless you pull a Mayhugh and throw your ball from the "14a" green.

If there's a better "a/b" combination hole in golf I'd love to hear about it.

[Michael Robin]

The 10th green at its most narrow is 7 paces across. That occurs at the mouth of the back 1/3 of the green. The pinable parts of the front 2/3 of the green are 10 paces at maximum. I was playing a round several years ago with Michael Cocking who works with Michael Clayton, and he remarked that that 7 paces was the most narrow he had ever seen or heard of. He was in awe of how amazing it was to make a green that small and still be playable. Can you imagine how scary the back pins get when it's fast and firm? Funny, I still get more frightened by the 16th green at Pacific Dunes.

[Tom_Doak]

To help put things in perspective for someone that has not played Riviera, but has played Pebble Beach... What is the smallest sq. foot green at Pebble (roughly speaking?)  I'm trying to get a sense for how much smaller #10 is given how small some of the greens at Pebble felt to me.

Tim:

The eighth green at Pebble Beach is the smallest one there.  It's just over 2,500 square feet ... smaller than 10 at Riviera, because it is not very deep.

The average green at Pebble is only about 3,500 square feet.

I know those numbers because Jack Nicklaus often used the size of greens at Pebble as examples when we were building Sebonack.

[PCCraig]

It's really a treat to watch the first couple of days of golf at Riviera when they usually show a bunch of groups playing the hole.

I've never played the subject 10th at Riviera, but there is something about short par-4's with tiny greens. One of my favorite par-4 holes is the 4th at TCC in brookline...there are many of the same options off the tee as the 10th at Riv, but I think the 4th at TCC is cool because of the hill that 1) hides the green from sight off the tee and 2) dictates your level of aggressiveness (even from position "A" on top of that hill from ~90 yards out with a wedge in your hands...it's a tough target!)

Maybe a quick question for the GCA's; do short par-4's with small greens (and few pin locations) have a more defined strategy or would a short par-4 with a huge green (and many pin locations) give even more options off the tee once the player has take into effect the changing pin? Sorry I can't think of an example.

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

An example of the hole you're describing is the 17th at the TPC at Scottsdale.  It's a big green with some crazy different hole locations that bring the water more into play; if you pull driver and hit a bad one, you can make a real mess of it.  But, it does seem quite contrived.

 

[PCCraig]

Pat:

An example of the hole you're describing is the 17th at the TPC at Scottsdale.  It's a big green with some crazy different hole locations that bring the water more into play; if you pull driver and hit a bad one, you can make a real mess of it.  But, it does seem quite contrived.

 

So from our examples I think you can draw a conclusion that small greens on short par-4's are more effective!

Are there any great short par-4's with huge greens? I may have to "retire to the library" to see if I can find one 

[TEPaul]

Michael Robin:

Your yardage widths on that 10th green exactly match mine. I walked it in 2001 not once but twice just to be sure.

[Tim Bert]

So from our examples I think you can draw a conclusion that small greens on short par-4's are more effective!

Are there any great short par-4's with huge greens? I may have to "retire to the library" to see if I can find one 

Kingsley 13 is the best short par 4 with a gigantic green that comes to mind.

[John Mayhugh]

This is a nice "accessible" hole location.


It's really sucking having to watch the tournament on the golf channel - not in HD on my cable system.  Looking forward to tomorrow.


Kyle,
The "2 or 20" green at Engineers is about 30 yards deep and probably 12 or 13 across in the front, narrower in the back.  But at least you get to approach it from close an ideal angle.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Riviera
16th green, 2,100 sq. ft.

10th green, 2,800 sq. ft.

The previous superintendent there and I had this discussion one day as he indicated most people would/do think the 10th is the smallest on the course.

[Tom Birkert]

What a wonderful hole it is. Pure genius.

Love watching the pros play it, amazing how many double bogeys are recorded.

[JohnV]

Riviera
16th green, 2,100 sq. ft.

10th green, 2,800 sq. ft.

The previous superintendent there and I had this discussion one day as he indicated most people would/do think the 10th is the smallest on the course.

Interesting.  I'd bet there are a couple at Pebble that might be smaller also.

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