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Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #150 on: February 02, 2010, 03:46:19 PM »
Bill McBride: No money changed hands in the USGA/Ping settlement.

Jamie: The incident you described was a great development for golf club regulation. It was similar in some ways to Ping introducing the rediuses grooves, in that when the USGA looked at the groove, they determined that the proposed rule really didn't cover it. In this case one thing was clear: spin generation was in excess of a traditional v groove, and that standard was always part of the new groove regulations.

So, by submitting the groove, any situation that might have been similar to the Ping case was avoided. Not to Mr. Cleveland's liking, I presume, but in the best interests of the game.

Bythe way, how is your game?
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #151 on: February 02, 2010, 03:49:53 PM »
Change the title of your thread to point out where the real guilty parties are located.

Matt, Rick is not questioning Phil's guilt or innocence, he is questioning his leadership. You can disagree with that, but there is no need for him to change the thread title.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #152 on: February 02, 2010, 03:54:12 PM »
Rick:

Here's what you left out -- AP endorsed Callaway products that were illegal. AP lent his names and his pocketbook to such an enterprise. In addition, AP was the point person -- still is -- for the USGA.

Phil's stand -- while questionable to some -- is entirely legal and he doesn't profit from the PING connection since he uses Callaway products.

Change the title of your thread to point out where the real guilty parties are located.

I'm not going to change the title of the thread, because I don't think there are any "guilty" parties. Start your own thread.

And I didn't leave anything out. Everyone knows the ERC driver didn't conform. The USGA dropped Palmer as a spokesperson for a time over the Callaway matter. Now he's back. Apparently they're satisfied.

And, Matt, please let yourself be the last person to tell me on this thread that what Phil did was legal. I have stipulated to that several times. Twenty more people telling me it was legal doesn't change my opinion of his judgment.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #153 on: February 02, 2010, 03:56:59 PM »
Sam Morrow writes:
I think many posters around here won't be pleased with anything until all tour players wear coats and ties and play with hickory shafted clubs, oh and I almost forgot that they can't use tees but clumps of dirt.

I'd be willing to let them use sand.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Make them tee it up in the Open left-handed. Put 40,000 people out there watching them play from the other side. Let Nicklaus, Kite, Watson and Floyd get in a bunker and try to get out left-handed. Everybody would be giggling and laughing.
 --Mac O'Grady (on what he would do to spice up the game)


Bill Rocco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #154 on: February 02, 2010, 04:06:40 PM »
In related news, Rory McIlroy believes they should keep "U" shape grooves but "doesn't see why they don't firm greens up and get the rough longer to bring scores down". When I read this I was curious to how much firmer the PGA or USGA would have to make them from their currently levels to bring the scores down, most cases they are on greens at speed of 11, us open 13-14, is that really reasonable to expect every course that is going to host a tournament to have us open conditions to "keep scores down".

Brent Hutto

Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #155 on: February 02, 2010, 04:09:53 PM »
Bill,

Welcome to the forum.

I believe master McIlroy means the firmness of green w.r.t. approach shots. The "ideal" conditions for favorable scoring among elite players consist of soft but fast. Soft greens means the approach shot sticks right where it lands and fast means 12-ish on the Stimpmeter.

It doesn't matter how fast they putt rolls, what he's asking for is greens where a wedge shot out of the rough bounds into trouble when it lands unless it has extreme spin on it.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #156 on: February 02, 2010, 04:17:28 PM »
Brent,

Didn't realize I think just like a 20 year old phenom, huh?

Brent Hutto

Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #157 on: February 02, 2010, 04:29:31 PM »
Didn't realize I think just like a 20 year old phenom, huh?

Didn't you mean to type "still" think like a 20 year old phenom?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #158 on: February 02, 2010, 04:31:13 PM »
Dreamin'...

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #159 on: February 02, 2010, 04:55:49 PM »
Count me on Rick's -- and his supporters' -- side of this.

The Ping club's "legality" is what I believe the lawyers call a dispositive argument, but not (to me) a persuasive one.

I want golf to be ... different.

I want golf to be a game of men ... and, of course, women -- not of (merely) laws.

George Pazin's citation of Davis Love is exactly what I want from the game, at every level.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Brent Hutto

Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #160 on: February 02, 2010, 04:58:44 PM »
Dan,

Then you're talking about playing very differently than the mainstream. How many pages in the Rules of Golf? How many more in the various lists and decisions and whatever about balls and implements. The game has been lawyered to death for generations now.

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #161 on: February 02, 2010, 05:24:38 PM »
Chuck: More bad legal work by the USGA.  Is the effective date January 1, 2009 - is that correct or did he misspeak, is it a typo or is it sloppiness?  The statement says nothing about whether they considered the Ping issue and how they were going to deal with it - it's critical and if they simply ignored it then they shouldn't be in charge - if they missed it, then they need to explain how they plan on dealing with it. You don't ignore mistakes you deal with them.

Oh, gosh, Jerry, I don't know how to begin...

That "statement" in italics was, as I said, just little old me, speaking in the pretend-voice of a USGA lawyer.  And (shame on me) it was a typo in which I put down January 1, 2009, instead of 2010.  Good proofreading and factchecking by you.

But you've raised another, more significant point that I'd like to take head-on.  In my play-acting "statement" I said nothing about whether the Tour and the USGA had previously considered the issue of the old Ping Eye 2 grandfathering.  But in fact, they had.  This didn't just come up in Hawai'i and then in San Diego, out of the blue.  The USGA and Ping issued statements back in mid 2008.  It was well-known.  At least, I considered it well-known.  It was on the USGA website.  It was on Ping's website.  It was discussed on Geoff Shackelford's blog.

And, I personally do not think that the USGA or the Tour felt like they would be caught off-guard.  I believe, that both the USGA and the Tour had thought that it would be a tiny, inconsequential number of players that would ever use the old Eye 2 wedges.  And indeed it mostly is.  It might seem like a large number, because a very few players have made the story a very big controversy.  And Phil Mickelson might very well have been acting deliberately, not in trying to gain advantage with a legal wedge, but rather in inflaming the story with his choice to use a marginally better-spinning wedge.

I think we can categorically state that the Tour and the USGA did not ignore the story.  And their objective appraisal of the facts might still be accurate.  As for the public relations war, I think it is like all wars.  No battle plan survives the first shot.

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #162 on: February 02, 2010, 05:31:19 PM »
Count me on Rick's -- and his supporters' -- side of this.

The Ping club's "legality" is what I believe the lawyers call a dispositive argument, but not (to me) a persuasive one.

I want golf to be ... different.

I want golf to be a game of men ... and, of course, women -- not of (merely) laws.

George Pazin's citation of Davis Love is exactly what I want from the game, at every level.


Dan, the size of this thread is a bit overwhelming; forgive me if it has been mentioned already, but...

Among the solutions to this problem (more litigation, or a simple voluntary agreement by Ping and the Tour that the old grandfathering of the Eye 2 on Tour would be no more, etc.) was this tantalizing news tidbit today -- talk amongst the Tour players, of a totally voluntary, "Pledge" list, saying that as sportsmen they would not use the Eye 2's.  Apparently, with 'peer pressure' as the one motivator.  One large, long signature page.  (An autograph hunter's dream, too.)

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #163 on: February 02, 2010, 06:31:10 PM »
Bill McBride: No money changed hands in the USGA/Ping settlement.

Jamie: The incident you described was a great development for golf club regulation. It was similar in some ways to Ping introducing the rediuses grooves, in that when the USGA looked at the groove, they determined that the proposed rule really didn't cover it. In this case one thing was clear: spin generation was in excess of a traditional v groove, and that standard was always part of the new groove regulations.

So, by submitting the groove, any situation that might have been similar to the Ping case was avoided. Not to Mr. Cleveland's liking, I presume, but in the best interests of the game.

Bythe way, how is your game?


Jim,

Unfortunately, at this time of year, my game is on ice. Spring can't come soon enough no matter what groove is in my wedges.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #164 on: February 02, 2010, 06:57:38 PM »
Rick,

Enough has been said for legal versus spirit......BUT...if you are looking to Phil Mickelson for leadership you are going to sadly dissapointed!!

Lester

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #165 on: February 02, 2010, 07:19:16 PM »
Quote
Tony,

This sounds very similar to the defense of Tiger Woods up until Thanksgiving weekend. In 1984 there was no Nationwide and there were no overseas tour to really speak of and those seniors did not have the money for the most part to travel.
Tiger in this? Strrrrrrrretch.

Look, the guys could have gone to a host of places, where... I don't care. Fact is, the Senior Tour could go away tomorrow and few would notice.

Quote
The start of this thread was the concept that Phil put himself above the rules and the game for his own benefit. In my opinion, he is no different than Hogan in being selfish. Maybe in different ways, but they are both selfish. We can argue all day about who started which charity first and get nowhere. Having spent time with the old seniors, I can just say they were no worse or better than today's professional golfer. They just played for less money with less media coverage.
Difference is, there were rules made to restore a bit of skill back into the game. Hogans choice had nothing to do with the integrity of the game. Nix, nada, zippo.

With Hogan, a late 50's-year old man at the time, protective of his name and brand, with buggered legs, had no desire to play. I get it. Phil chose the legal out. Fine... I said I understand it, but don't have to respect it.

Quote
These Hogan, Crump, Woods legacies all get built up too much IMO, and Phil is not nearly the skunk that people portray him. He's a little smelly for sure, but I could play a round of golf with him and have a good day.
Hogan's story is a great one. Woods has proven himself to be in a class of his own. Like a man competing against college kids. Crump did something fantastic and ground breaking, and put his own money and time up to do it.

Now there is a lot of smoke and mirrors, herd instincts, advertising passing for journalism in this business, but with time it all comes round.
You can't fool all the people all the time; not with the internet. Eventually the truth will surface.

I'll stick with my OP, and leave it at that:
Quote
It's a different era. In the old days players would take someone that pulled a swifty to the woodshed; which is what McCarron did publicly. I can respect his guts for taking a stand.
In the old days the recipient wouldn't have reacted with veiled legal threats, using the word "slander" so often a legal novice could figure out what was going on.

In light of the old days, how about another perspective: What Would Hogan Do? Or have done?
I think we all have an inkling, and illustrates the modern game has lost something.

I can understand both sides, and think it's fair to say Phil won't be looked up to as a leader, or taking the high road.

.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 07:23:40 PM by Tony Ristola »

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #166 on: February 02, 2010, 07:22:59 PM »
Jamie- I hear you. With a new business venture under way, it looks like even my annual 5 day to Phoenix is out, so I'm "X" until St. Patty's Day.

The idea of a voluntary moratorium by the players is a good one but I don't think I'd put my signature to it if I was asked because Ping could construe it that players playing Ping equipment were coerced to not play it, when it is approved for play. An actionable situation, sad to say. However, a general underdtanding? A gentlemanly agreement? Maybe.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #167 on: February 02, 2010, 09:06:33 PM »
Jamie- I hear you. With a new business venture under way, it looks like even my annual 5 day to Phoenix is out, so I'm "X" until St. Patty's Day.

The idea of a voluntary moratorium by the players is a good one but I don't think I'd put my signature to it if I was asked because Ping could construe it that players playing Ping equipment were coerced to not play it, when it is approved for play. An actionable situation, sad to say. However, a general underdtanding? A gentlemanly agreement? Maybe.

Fascinating.  Even if the Tour had no involvement?  And despite the fact that there is no "PGA Tour Players' Association"?  I do see your point.  And it is as interesting as it is weird.  I suppose Karsten Mfg.  could sue all 125-150 signatories of the "No Eye 2 Pledge."  It'd be a lot of depositions.  One strategy; don't even offer the pledge to the half-dozen guys who were using an Eye 2 wedge last year; Dean Wilson, Calcavecchia, Timmy Herron, etc. We know that there'd be no sudden influx to Ping contracts, even if all the Ping staff players were given a pass (to avoid a tortious interference claim); because Ping staff players generally have 12-13 club deals.  You have to REALLY like Ping stuff to be on their Tour staff.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #168 on: February 02, 2010, 10:05:39 PM »
The USGA has leaders that have titles that indicate that they should be leaders. While on some level I should applaud the notion that they appear to be addressing equipment issues, but are the grooves as big an issue as the ball?

As to Phil, he's a leader on the leaderboard, I suppose, but I don't necessarily expect any more out of him than that.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #169 on: February 02, 2010, 10:18:50 PM »
There is a "rule" and there is a "spirit". 

Rules are black and white. 

Spirit is very nebulous. 

You think Tom Watson and Anthony Kim have the same "spirit" for the game they both play for money?  Of course not.

Definitions of leadership are as malleable as the definition of spirit.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #170 on: February 02, 2010, 10:27:31 PM »
 8) Phil has enough pressure on him to be a winner.. that I believe he'll do what it takes, physically and mentally..

Rick Shefchik, you asked in Reply #15.. what would Tiger say.. do?  Well, i seem to remember him being interviewed on the groove thing and its impact on him, I think by Peter Kostis.. he wasn't concerned, as he already used compliant v grooves.. i imagine he'd be happy folks were worried about things other than their golf (-- and now we know.. perhaps misery loves company)

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Matt_Ward

Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #171 on: February 03, 2010, 09:51:11 AM »
Rick:

Leadership didn't happen from the ruling bodies -- don't you get it ?

Phil is simply doing what is legal and permissible.

AP, despite your memory loss, supported an illegal product -- whether it wasn't for competition as he stated -- the distinction is a minor point because AP lent his name and credibility tied to an illegal product and was richly paid for that stand. Where was his leadership and how credible was he when pushing the USGA at the same time? I didn't see all the fuss about "leadership" (lack thereof) from you and others who hold Phil to some sort of "leadership."

Gents:

Here is the press statement from PING on the mtg w Finchem ...

February 2, 2010

PING Chairman & CEO John Solheim issued the following statement tonight after the PGA Tour Players Meeting at the Northern Trust Open:

“PGA Tour Commissioner Finchem and I had a brief discussion this afternoon and he shared his belief that the 1993 settlement agreement allowed his organization to utilize the protocol to consider a special rule that would ban PING EYE2 irons and wedges. While we strongly disagree with their interpretation of the agreement, we agreed further dialogue on the topic was healthy. We hope to speak again in the next week or so. I’ve also been in contact with the USGA and expect to meet with them as well.”

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #172 on: February 03, 2010, 10:29:26 AM »
Rick:

Phil is simply doing what is legal and permissible.



Thanks for justifying my faith in you, pardner.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #173 on: February 03, 2010, 12:19:32 PM »
Matt Ward: "I didn't see all the fuss about 'leadership' (lack thereof) from you and others who hold Phil to some sort of 'leadership.' "

For heaven's sake, man -- That flap happened before Rick (and I, and no doubt others) had registered for this discussion group.

You could look it up.

I have no doubt that Rick would have objected, had he been here (and did object, away from your eyes), to Mr. Palmer's endorsement.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 01:06:54 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Matt_Ward

Re: Thanks for the leadership, Phil
« Reply #174 on: February 03, 2010, 01:59:58 PM »
The Palmer situation is far more serious and hurtful to the game than what Phil is wrongly accused of doing by his critics.

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