Galloway National

[Bill Rocco]

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone knows about a great course called Galloway National, it is ranked on Golf Digest 70 but very little discussion about it....from what I have seen of it I think it will make some serious waves in years to come on the rankings....

[Ronald Montesano]

Are there really pine trees in the bunker on two?  In play?  You can be stymied behind a tree, in a bunker?  A double hazard/penalty?  Why?

And how interesting are the greens?  Are they all recognizably circular shapes or is there some variety?  I hate upside-down pie pans!

[Mac Plumart]

I am also interested in hearing about Galloway National.

It is one of those Fazio courses that some seem to love and others not so much.  I am very interested to know why.


Ron...you mentioned trees in bunkers.  Sawgrass has a hole like that.  I can't remember which one it is.  But I hit  into a greenside bunker left of the green maybe 10 yards off line and I was in a bunker...fairly deep...that had a tree in it that lied directly between me and the flagstick.  It was a tree that's trunk splits in two and forms a "Y" shape.  I was tempted to hit my escape shot high and try to split that "Y" but my caddy was vehement that I not do that.  So, I hit around it onto the green.  Not as much fun...but probably the wise play.

[Mike Sweeney]

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35205.0/

Just a reminder that there are a bunch of courses at:

http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas

[Mike Cirba]

Bill,

I think Galloway is a terrific collection of golf holes, albeit with a bit of a clunky routing in spots, and it is one of my very favorite of Tom Fazio's courses, although since this I started the following thread many moons ago I believe the original course at Trump National Bedminster has surpassed it in my personal New Jersey rankings..

Still, a search for Galloway brings up a number of good threads, and I'm hopeful this was one of them;

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,2962.0/

[Mac Plumart]

Mike and Mike...

great links.  Thanks!!

In a nutshell, would you agree that Galloway National has a very solid (potentially great) collection of holes, the routing is a bit off at times, and the course is very challenging? 

As I've read about it previously, some people love it and other don't care for it.  Those two threads seem to share those same sentiments, but it appears that more like it than don't. 

It seems like a course that is well worth the effort for a GA boy to trek up north to give it a try.

Thanks again!

[Mike Cirba]

Mac,

From my perspective, it's well worth an effort to see, as it is a course that shows exactly how superb Tom Fazio can be as an architect, on land that is hardly scintlliating.

In my opinion, it's on par with World Woods Pine Barrens, and in the top 5-10% of Fazio courses I've played.   One certainly can't play it without wondering why so many of Mr. Fazio's courses, even on seemingly more promising sites, fall into that 5-6 rating category instead of the 7-8 clearly evident here.

[Bill Rocco]

I would say it fits right into Fazio design....most either love Fazio or hate them. Only time will tell us where to rank this among Jerseys great courses (personally my rankings are Pine Valley, Plainfield, Galloway, Baltusrol, Somerset Hills)

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Mike C raises plenty of valid point.

When GN first opened I was really taklen by the range of elements it provided. The routing is a bit tight in certain places but the overall qualities of the hole don't have the abundance of "make-up" one generally thinks of a TF course.

In my mind, it was top ten NJ layout but the competition for those ten spots has become quite competitive given NJ's depth of top tier layouts. Mike, also raised the equally valid point that Trump's original 18 in Bedminster is very good as well -- ditto the "little" brother layout right next to it that opened recently.

The only point I slight disagree w Mike is where GN falls w WW/PB is discussed -- I'll still take the Jersey layout as the better of the two. Just my Garden State pride showing !

[Mike Sweeney]

In a nutshell, would you agree that Galloway National has a very solid (potentially great) collection of holes, the routing is a bit off at times, and the course is very challenging? 

As I've read about it previously, some people love it and other don't care for it.  Those two threads seem to share those same sentiments, but it appears that more like it than don't. 

It seems like a course that is well worth the effort for a GA boy to trek up north to give it a try.

Thanks again!

Yes, I would agree with all of that. Atlantic City area in general is underrated around here.

[Matt_Ward]

The interesting dimension about AC is the battle that usually flairs when GN is thrown into the picture and others than chime in that Hidden Creek is the top dog in town. Those who are not fond of TF will weigh in accordingly to the C&C layout.

[David_Elvins]

One certainly can't play it without wondering why so many of Mr. Fazio's courses, even on seemingly more promising sites, fall into that 5-6 rating category instead of the 7-8 clearly evident here.

Mike,

Is it similar stylistically to other Fazio courses?  The reason I ask is that I thought there were a few stylistic similarities between Galloway and the Shore Course at MPCC.  I was wondering if it was a general stylistic thing that Strantz had picked up from Fazio or whether Strantz may have worked at Galloway and contributed to these features?  Does anyone know if Strantz worked at Galloway?  

Generally speaking, if a course stands out from an architects bigger body of work, it may be because of the design associates on that particular job.  

[cary lichtenstein]

An excellent course by Fazio with a few reservations

[Matt_Ward]

David E:

There's no doubt that associates do play a role -- but remember this -- they work UNDER the name of a person who employs THEM.

In regards to Galloway National from what I can remember I don't believe MS was involved.

One final thing -- TF made GN breathe -- he didn't force feed a range of bells and whistle elements that overpower what a Jersey shore course can and should be. Want an example of overkill. Check out Shoregate which is in the immediate neighborhood. Has plenty of good holes -- but was bombarded with all the extras that are clearly miscast and used.

[David_Elvins]

David E:

There's no doubt that associates do play a role -- but remember this -- they work UNDER the name of a person who employs THEM.

Of course, I think some do undervalue the Name Designer on this website and I am in no way trying to take credit away from Fazio when occasionally some comes his way.   But as an example, Greg Norman's Australian designs are much more highly regarded than his American designs.  This has been credited to his design staff in Australia so it is obviously a factor that should be considered when evaluating the breadth of styles and qualities in a designers work.  Now conversely I have seen books that dont list Greg Norman at all as the designer of any of his courses in Australia which is also wrong. 

[Kevin Pallier]

From my perspective, it's well worth an effort to see, as it is a course that shows exactly how superb Tom Fazio can be as an architect, on land that is hardly scintlliating.

In my opinion, it's on par with World Woods Pine Barrens, and in the top 5-10% of Fazio courses I've played.   One certainly can't play it without wondering why so many of Mr. Fazio's courses, even on seemingly more promising sites, fall into that 5-6 rating category instead of the 7-8 clearly evident here.

Mike

I was glad I made the effort to see it on my trip as I was quite impressed with the design. I thought it was far superior to Pine Hill in my limited experience of Fazio designs.

[Rick Sides]

Galloway is a very solid design carved through the pines and Jersey shore region.  From the Fazio courses I have played, I would put it up there as one of his best. 

[Lenny Polakoff]

Galloway is a terrific course and definately one of Fazio's best.   The routing is good and the holes all flow well into eachother even though there are very few spots on the course you can see any other hole, other than the one you are on.  That is an intersting feature to the course in my opinion.  Worth the play if you have the chance.

[Bob Harris]

Are there really pine trees in the bunker on two?  In play?  You can be stymied behind a tree, in a bunker?  A double hazard/penalty?  Why?

And how interesting are the greens?  Are they all recognizably circular shapes or is there some variety?  I hate upside-down pie pans!

A good collection of par 3s, and yes, there are trees in the bunkers.  Despite the trees, #2 is my favorite.

[Jerry Kluger]

Galloway is certainly a course that is worth going out of your way to play.  The course has a whole bunch of really good holes and the only downside is caused by the views of he bay and the road which bisects the course.  It is obvious that the owner wanted as many holes as possible to have a view of the bay and this creates two par 3s which are a bit forced and also creates a bad doubleback kind of routing.  The road bisects the course which causes a couple of really long walks - I think my caddie told me it was 347 yards from the 15th green to the 16th tee.  Oh yeah, another downside can be the horseflys which just bite the heck out of you.

The upside is a really wonderful setting with a really nice golf course - as opposed to country club - clubhouse.  Walking is the norm although carts are available.  The opening hole is really good and gives a good feel of the rest of the course.  The greens have some really interesting contours which a knowledgeable caddie can really help you with. Good short par 4s and interesting par 5s.  Fazio kept the look of the natural grasses throughout the course and the bunkers carry over that feeling.   The course most often plays firm and fast which makes it fun. C & C's Hidden Creek is not too far away and GN is certainly its equal. 

[Tony Ristola]

David E:

There's no doubt that associates do play a role -- but remember this -- they work UNDER the name of a person who employs THEM.

Funny how this site is semi-obsessed with who did what, and then with modern work... it's a game of "hide the baloney".

That's the unbelievability of Signature Designs. They would be more believable if the figureheads actually shared credit with those who do the heavy lifting, not just the Signature producing.

It becomes even more silly when you get the same architect team crediting an associate publicly on one project, and not on others. As one such associate said about the situation; they chose to to it for marketing purposes. Obviously. The truth is expedient when confronted by other forces.

I find the Michelson grooves controversy hilarious, as on one hand some pro's get aroused when someone makes an assault on "the spirit off the game", and then turn around and rape it in another.

I guess it's because most have no clue what goes on with producing a golf course, and because most are in the dark... then it's OK to treat them like mushrooms by adding a thick layer of fertilizer.

.

[mike_malone]

 To be a very good course you first need a very good routing. Is the routing very good?
 Secondly, I think you need to create various shots by the use of angles off the tee or approaching the green. Doesn't this course pretty much force you down the middle?

  Finally, shouldn't the greens have movement rather than abrupt elevation changes?

    I must say it has its own category to itself----a big waste of money.

[Bill Rocco]

There are various shots created..you can see runoffs around the greens and large approaches. To force the golfer to drive it down the center is where golf courses have been going the last 20 years with rough getting to be 4 to 5 inches.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mayday,

It's 19 degrees in Connecticut and we got shut out of Pepe's in New Haven today (you can Google it). I need a few laughs. What are your Top 5 courses at The Shore and what are your Top 5 Philly courses?

Pine Valley and Merion are not allowed on either list.

[archie_struthers]

 

be back later gotta give a friend a ride to work in the snow......love Galloway  ...lots of birdies and bogeys out there