Best Non-Doak or Non-C&C course built last 20 years?

[Brett Hochstein]

Great to see the love for Kingsley.  I haven't been around enough places, but I will say that since I have been to Scotland I have learned to appreciate Kingsley even more, which i never would have imagined given the unreal nature of the links.  But that land and the way it is utilized and maintained is just sheer joy. Taking the fun quality of the links and adding real architectural merit based upon years of study has created an ideal product.

[Mac Plumart]

When you guys say "best...course", do you mean "best" or do you mean your "favorite" course?

I try to make it clear I am talking about my "favorite" courses, but I am unsure if others do.  If you go by the "best" moniker, do you have a pre-determined method of determining the "best"?

Curious.

[Andy Troeger]

I wouldn't even put Whistling Straits as the best course at the resort--Blackwolf Run would take that honor for me. And actually, of what I've played Blackwolf Run River would win, except I believe the original course opened in 1988.

I'm not sure when Wolf Run in Zionsville, IN opened, it too was right around 1990 I think, but if it qualifies it takes the cake for me. If its too old, then I'll go with Chambers Bay.

Lots of good stuff out there, there are 3-4 other courses in my top 25 in this category that deserve mention too, but I've already listed three courses when the thread asked for one 

[Keith Phillips]

have only played Talking Stick N and Pacific Dunes of C&C / Doak - LOVE TSN as a mid-winter strategic/forgiving course for a Northeaster, and understand how good PacDunes is but actually preferred Bandon Dunes, partly due to how much I sprayed the ball at PD (it is wide but wasnt' wide enough for me) - my favorites of past 20 years are Kingsbarns and Loch Lomond

[mark chalfant]

Galloway National


Calclub- restoration

[Philippe Binette]

From those I've seen

WILD HORSE GC, Guthenberg NE

[James Boon]

I'm not sure Castle Stuart is the best new course built in Scotland...in 2010...

I don't know if KC is the 3rd best...but I gotta believe it's the funnest to play.

Chris,

So what beats it in Scotland? I did admit to not having played too many new courses and I certainly don't think we've had that many over here in the last 20 years that are worthy of consideration, whereas over the other side of the pond there seem to be plenty?

And it opened in 2009? 

Cheers,

James

[Andrew Mitchell]

From what I've played...Kingsbarns

That opinion may change if I get the chance to play Castle Stuart later this year.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Kauri Cliffs deserves consideration.

You must be shittin me.....

Ron - half the courses in Hawaii are better than KC.  Try this experiment.  Take 200 feet of elevation off of KC and sidle it up next to The Ocean Course at Kiawah.  Match them hole-by-hole and the score would be Kiawah 18, KC 0.

JC

[Pete Lavallee]

JC is right here; what's so special about Kauri Cliffs?

Although they might not be the best courses to hold a US Open on, I can't think of two places where I wouldn't mind having to play every day for the rest of my life than Rustic Canyon or Wild Horse. Although I'd probably shoot myself if I had to eat out every night in Gothenburg. 

[Ron Csigo]

JC - I thought Kiawah Island was in South Carolina, not Hawaii.  I would enjoy seeing your list of Hawaii courses that are better than Kauri Cliffs.  KC is built on a great property for golf which includes the elevation and the views.  This is a contributing factor which makes the course more appealing.  You can not fault the course for the property that it was built on because it would be a disservice to many other courses.   

[Scott Szabo]

From those I've seen

WILD HORSE GC, Guthenberg NE

Philippe,

You beat me to it - I'm surprised it took this long for Wild Horse to be mentioned.  The fact that it's a ridiculous value at around $40 bucks or so has to make it one of the best values in the US.  Not to mention that it's a great course.  Sadly it has lost a bit of its firmness in recent years, but that doesn't lessen it at all in my eyes.

[George Freeman]

Sadly it has lost a bit of its firmness in recent years...

Any idea why this is the case??

[Scott Szabo]

Sadly it has lost a bit of its firmness in recent years...

Any idea why this is the case??

Adam Clayman may be able to provide more information on this, but from what I recall, the locals wanted things softened up a bit.  I don't recall where I had heard this (maybe reported on this site) but it definitely has played softer in the past few years. 

[JNC Lyon]

My favorite from the last twenty years is the The Ocean Course at Kiawah as well.  I'm guessing that this gets a ton of exposure because it si public-access, in a great vacation spot, and a former Ryder Cup host.

I am a little surprised that Whistling Straits does not have more votes on this site.

[Dan Kelly]

No votes for Augusta National?

You guys are losing your edge.

(The two "new" courses I've driven hours to play, on more than one occasion, and will do so again, happily, are Sutton Bay and The Quarry at Giants Ridge. I'm sure there are others that would qualify under that criterion -- but I haven't played them.)

[John Kirk]

Isn't the Ocean Course at Kiawah Island brutally difficult?

Have any of you scored well there?  How many people do you know walk off the course and say "Well, it's beautiful, but it's too hard for me."

[Mac Plumart]

John...

Your post touches on exactly why I think it is an exceptionally great course.

I played it last summer and shot an 89.  I am an 11ish handicap at the time and the wind was up to 30 mph for the entirety of the round.  I played the Dye tees and had a blast.  Did I score my best round ever...no...but given it was my first time, with that wind, I scored well enough to make me happy.

Furthermore, I didn't think the course demanded a shot I didn't have in the bag.  For instance, 13 requires a diagonal tee shot to cross over a river-like inlet of the marsh to make the fairway.  From the tees I played, you can make that a 250ish yard carry and be sitting pretty for a birdie (but if you fade it you are wet) or make that a 150ish yard carry and play for bogey (with little chance of a penalty shot)...or anywhere in between...bit off as much as you can chew so to speak.

In fact, I thought many of the holes played that way...try for birdie, but stare down a double.  Challenge for par but face bogey.  Or head in for a very doable bogey.  Pick your poison...as the decision is yours and not forced on you in anyway.

Now I have a low handicap friend who loves to play it from the tips (or as close as they'll let him) and it challenges him severely...but if I played from there...I wouldn't like the course at all...too tough.

Anyway, play the right tee and the course is wonderuflly challenging but appropriately challenging.  IMO.

[Sean_A]

Isn't the Ocean Course at Kiawah Island brutally difficult?

Have any of you scored well there?  How many people do you know walk off the course and say "Well, it's beautiful, but it's too hard for me."

John

It was a pleasant surprise to fnd so much room to play on TOC.  Granted, there was only a 10-12 mph wind when I was there and we played many forward tees - not sure what they were called - Brent Hutto probably knows.  Still, I think I shot somwhere in the low 80s with not a good day putting or approaching.  That said, once you leave the very generous fairways, it is a world of hurt out there.  Gosh, if they cut the green fee in half TOC would probably be one of my more favoured courses - they quality and playaility of the design is certainly in place.

Ciao   

[Pete Lavallee]

Anyway, play the right tee and the course is wonderuflly challenging but appropriately challenging.  IMO.

Not true, if you play the back tees there are angles to be attacked on all the non par 3 tee shots. However when you move up to the whites, the hole now becomes straight and the angled nature of the tee shot is severely diluted. So the challange is completely different the farther up you move. In fact any golf course that measures over 7400 yards cannot provide the same test from the forward tees as it does from the tips since the turn point of the holes is designed for play from the tips.

[Michael Dugger]

So thus far the short list is....

Kingsley Club
Boston GC
Ocean Course
Kingsbarns
Castlestuart
Wildhorse
Black Mesa
Whistling Straits
Kauri Cliffs
Ballyhack
Erin Hills

[Garland Bayley]

So thus far the short list is....

Kingsley Club
Boston GC
Ocean Course
Kingsbarns
Castlestuart
Wildhorse
Black Mesa
Whistling Straits
Kauri Cliffs
Ballyhack
Erin Hills

We know you aren't real high on Chambers Bay, but leaving it out of the list is a bit much isn't it?

[Alex Miller]

Agreed, swap Chambers for Kauri Cliffs and it seems like a more solid list.

Could Rustic sneak in their too? Such an awesome CHEAP PUBLIC choice!

[Chris DeNigris]

J Boon,

While I've only had the pleasure of playing each once, I'm more compelled to return to Mach Dunes for an encore round. And I'm not slighting CS.

I'll also throw in RNK, there really should be a Strantz offering on the list..it may not be the best but it's better than some on the above list.

[Lester George]

Bravo Jeff Brauer!!!  I feel the exact same way.  Poorly worded title.

Lester