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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2010, 08:43:54 AM »
W2,

5th hole, par 3, 180 yards.  Due to the west/southwest wind this hole was playing both into the wind and with a crosswind.  At the time there was very little wind and the green is somewhat hidden by the trees on the border of the property.  I hit the six-iron of my life that was tracking right at the pin.  Right as the ball crested, the wind p ;Dicked up, stopped my ball completely and worked it left into the 10+ft deep bunker short/left of the green.  I've not made more solid contact with a six-iron in my life and it was DEAD ON the flag for 90% of its flight.

Next time, grasshopper, you'll take an extra club into the wind!

You are so wise.  It must come with age. ;) ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2010, 08:46:11 AM »
So, what do you think, Ryan, should we gang up on J.C. Jones on this thread and tell him for the next 35 pages that he's full of shit?


It shouldn't take you 35 pages to prove your point, you could probably do it in one post ;)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2010, 09:32:29 AM »

Have you ever known a girl for some time who sort of wears baggy clothes or whatever and then for whatever reason some day and for some reason she take them all off---and you look at her and say to yourself-----My God, I had no idea at all what was underneath!
 

TEP,please don't take another sabbatical--I live for comments like this.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2010, 10:08:46 AM »
The one thing I really enjoyed was walking around the course with the hole by hole Ross plans, comparing what was on paper to what was on the ground today. That was probably more enjoyable then it would have been playing the course.



This is the second thread where someone has said they have/used the Ross plans for this course.  Are they handing these things out somewhere?  If so, please tell. :)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Seminole
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2010, 10:32:45 AM »
JME:

That happened to me one time in NYC and I would have to say I was more than just a little surprised. I guess the point is one would probably have to say I just don't have a particularly vivid imagination, other than when it comes to golf course architecture of course. ;)

Now you take Pat Mucci, for instance----that is a whole different deal. One time I actually saw him trying to make love to the 18th hole at NGLA.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 10:37:56 AM by TEPaul »

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2010, 10:36:30 AM »
ME:

That actually happened to me one time in NYC and I would have to say I was more than just a little surprised. I guess the point is one would probably have to say I just don't have a particularly vivid imagination, other than when it comes to golf course architecture of course. ;)

I can only hope that she possessed your Ideal Maintenance Meld.

TEPaul

Re: Seminole
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2010, 10:41:49 AM »
She sure did. I was on my way to Florida the next day for about three weeks and I tried to do everything I could think of to cajole or coerce her down there but I pretty much struck out on three straight swings. I don't know what the deal was with girls like that back in that day. Maybe it was just that the Annie Hall days were in full bloom back then. That was an era when "If you've got it flaunt it" wasn't exactly every gal's bag.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 10:46:08 AM by TEPaul »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2010, 10:48:41 AM »
She sure did. I was on my way to Florida the next day for about three weeks and I tried to do everything I could think of to cajole or coerce her down there but I pretty much struck out on three straight swings. I don't know what the deal was with girls like that back in that day. Maybe it was just that the Annie Hall days were in full bloom back then. That was an era when "If you've got it flaunt it" wasn't exactly every gal's bag.

Were you heading to Florida to play Seminole?  Sorry, just trying to get this thread back on track. 

And why is it that when I am at Seminole I am forced to have a conversation about Tom Paul with someone who is not on this message board? :)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Seminole
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2010, 11:16:03 AM »
JC:

I was indeed along with my far more regular standby down there---Gulf Stream. I think I've played Gulf Stream more in my life than any other except my own club in Philadelphia.

The answer to your second question is because I'm really infamous. Didn't you know that? One time while having lunch at Royal County Down in Ireland I was treated to having to listen to a group at the next table, none of whom I'd ever seen before, discussing me and Golfclubatlas.com. Do you think I introduced myself? Hell NO!
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 11:22:25 AM by TEPaul »

Bill Hyde

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2010, 11:17:32 AM »
Here's a fun quote I had from a looper at Seminole during one visit...."I caddy at Winged Foot in the summertime, it's more of a 'working man's club' - this place is where the guys they work for belong."

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2010, 12:49:37 PM »
JC:

I was indeed along with my far more regular standby down there---Gulf Stream. I think I've played Gulf Stream more in my life than any other except my own club in Philadelphia.

The answer to your second question is because I'm really infamous. Didn't you know that? One time while having lunch at Royal County Down in Ireland I was treated to having to listen to a group at the next table, none of whom I'd ever seen before, discussing me and Golfclubatlas.com. Do you think I introduced myself? Hell NO!

Well, if there ever was any question, it was all positive and as I said in my PM, he says hi.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Seminole
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2010, 01:05:10 PM »
JC:

"He" is a terrific guy. If you're aware of some signifiant club who's looking for a head pro, with his beautiful manners and over-all class you would never go wrong recommending him.

Tony Weiler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2010, 01:22:23 PM »
JC, how about an update on the match?

Patrick Hodgdon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2010, 01:29:10 PM »
I've got a full hole by hole tour with match highlights I'll finish tonight after my round. You all will be impressed with JC's A+ game (minus a few putts) that he brought to Seminole. He may only get 4 a side in Jones-Hodgdon IV.

Tom- I couldn't agree more about the assistant you are talking about. It is clear that along with one of the best courses and clubhouses their training and development of bright young assistants into ready made head pros is second to none.
Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2010, 06:34:06 AM »
JME:

That happened to me one time in NYC and I would have to say I was more than just a little surprised. I guess the point is one would probably have to say I just don't have a particularly vivid imagination, other than when it comes to golf course architecture of course. ;)

Now you take Pat Mucci, for instance----that is a whole different deal. One time I actually saw him trying to make love to the 18th hole at NGLA.


TEPaul,

That was "ON" the 18th hole, and that wasn't the "Dean's daughter"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2010, 06:40:38 AM »
JC, I'm glad you enjoyed your round, and hell getting to play that thing is kind of a big deal.

but..... every "good" golf course I have ever seen is still miles ahead of Seminole. I haven't quite traveled like some on here, but I have gotten to see some damn fine golf courses in the last 3 or 4 years and Seminole, is just  plain boring.

Ryan,

Did YOU PLAY THE GOLF COURSE, or just walk around it ?

The 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th holes are boring ?
Are you sure you played Seminole ?

To discuss just a few holes, tell us, what's boring about the holes I listed above.


And I've read what you have about how great the routing is, and how it takes such advantage of the 1 dune ridge but come on, this golf course can be duplicated pretty much anywhere with 1 big dirt move on a dead flat site (which begs the question, why hasn't it). I must have had the blinders on but I got a peak of the ocean once then a glimpse near the end, and then I had to stand on my tip toes to really see the ocean up close.

It's obvious that you're either very short or don't look around much.
Didn't you notice the ocean on # 2, # 3, # 4, # 7, # 11, # 12, # 13, # 14, # 16, # 17 and # 18 ? ?  ?


I'm sorry, I just don't buy into the hype, which is driven by the clubs desire to be "exclusive". And I really think the no picture taking policy is in effect because the course really doesn't look that great.... at all.

Had you been drinking much the night before or on the day of your visit ?


I still think its a great course but I wouldn't want to play it every day, and I certainly don't think it belongs in the top 25.

You must have had an off day.

I would relish the opportunity to play the course EVERY DAY for the rest of my life.


*Runs for cover!


« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 06:43:44 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

TEPaul

Re: Seminole
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2010, 10:23:28 AM »
"It is clear that along with one of the best courses and clubhouses their training and development of bright young assistants into ready made head pros is second to none."


No question of it. What you refer to as "training and development" emanates from you know who----arguably the best head pro training and development mentor in America if not the world. At my place in Philly we have a head pro out of that program and he is just wonderful.

Patrick, eventually, I'm going to IM you a really funny story. Or maybe you should first IM me your email. Belay that; maybe we should take it to a FBI/CIA/NSA free super-secure phone line! Belay that too; let's meet in person about 40 yards up in the dunes behind #18 at fifteen minutes to midnight on a date of convenience to both.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2010, 06:05:52 PM »
Tom,

I can only hope to be as famous as you someday. 

JC,

Nice description of Seminole, the reasons sound familiar.  Only times I have ever played it are with Vinny Giles and Jim Searle who have de-elevated their status by playing with me.  BTW, both of them know TOM PAUL!!!  Thats how famous he is!!!!

Lester

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2010, 06:31:44 PM »
They both know Downing Gray too, he was Walker Cup captain in 1995-97 and was low amateur at the Masters several times in the 60s.

Downing and our pro went down to Seminole to play in a pro-am event that Downing has played in for years.  When they got back, Charlie, our pro, explained to me why Seminole plays so hard in competition. 

He told me that the greens are so firm and tight and fast in the winds there that it can be almost impossible to keep the ball on the green, even when playing out of greenside bunkers.   There was a lot of back and forth, bunker ping pong, as explosion shots would land on the green and take the slopes down into another bunker.

It didn't sound like a lot of fun.   :o

TEPaul

Re: Seminole
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2010, 06:59:42 PM »
"They both know Downing Gray too, he was Walker Cup captain in 1995-97 and was low amateur at the Masters several times in the 60s."


Downing had quite the golf career and he's one helluva good public joke-teller and raconteur too. Here's a good one ABOUT Downing----he played a round with Hogan in some US Open (don't know whether it was in practice or during the tournament) but as Hogan entered the lockerroom with one of the pros they played with he was overheard to say: "That amateur we just played with might be the best putter I've ever seen."

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2010, 09:15:19 PM »
TEPaul,

I think some of the disconnect that some have in evaluating Seminole is the lack of repeat play, the lack of playing with a good variety in the direction and velocity of the wind.

Take a hole like # 10.
With a prevailing wind from the Southeast, the hole appears relatively easy.
A 3-wood and a short iron played down wind.

Turn the wind around and the hole becomes ferocious, especially if the pin is cut toward the left perimeter of the green.

Downwind, it's a benign par 4 with birdie a possibility.
Into the wind, a par is a great score, with bogey and worse more likely.

But, if the golfer only plays the hole once, with the prevailing wind, their opinion of the hole tends to be unflattering.

The same can be said of # 2, and # 11, downwind, while they're challenging, they are nowhere near as challengin as into the wind.
Ditto # 4

Those fortunate enough to experience multiple play get the benefit of enjoying the mulitiple personalities the course presents as the direction and velocity of the wind changes.

The other feature I like is how features come and and out of play depending upon wind direction and velocity.

Take a simple par 5 like # 3 and # 9.
Wind direction and velocity can take these "birdie" holes and make them produce telephone numbers on the score card.

The problem is that most golfers are focused on their game as they play the course and they don't project or visualize what the holes would be like under conditions that differ from those they're encountering as they play that day.

This tunnel vision is what tends to produce erroneous assessments from the unelightened  ;D

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2010, 09:22:58 PM »
Pat,

I don't buy the necessity for repeat plays to recognize how great Seminole is.  I've played it once, in the non-prevailing wind and I found the course to be, well, see what I said in post #1.

Patrick H. and I were discussing this yesterday, one of the geniuses of the routing is that except for 2 of the par 4's, all of the rest are between 370-395 yards long yet, depending on the wind, they could play anywhere from 340-440. 

It seems to me that Ross, as opposed to another designer who might impose holes on the property, really made an effort to find a variety of holes that would play in a variety of ways depending on the wind.  Truly brilliant.

Take, for example, one of the holes that many consider to be plain, #9.  The wind was almost directly at our backs last week.  Both Patrick and I hit good drives but because we had the wind behind us, they went further than usual and we were cut off from going for the green because the fairway comes in at the end of the landing area.  I was in the fairway on the left side and had to try and hoist a 6 iron over the trees to get to the green.  Into the wind and its a 3 shot hole.  With the wind, it can be a two shot hole but only with a drive placed on the right half of the fairway.  I don't need multiple plays to realize how cool that is.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2010, 10:08:19 PM »
JC,

A good number of people, after playing one round, have posted how overrated they think Seminole is.

I suspect that they are amongst the unenlightened and need to play the course more often under differing conditions.

Didn't one poster recently indicate that he thought Seminole was boring, like most muni's he's played ?

Do you think he "got it" after one viewing, or that he needs repeat play to see the light ?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seminole
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2010, 10:11:47 PM »
One of the architectural features I really, really, really love about Seminole is the feeding nature of the greens, how they direct errant or miscalculated shots toward their perimeters and then down into bunkers or the nearby fairway and roughs,  and how much the wind influences that function.

That particular nuance of the architecture isn't apparent to many who just walk and inspect the golf course, versus those who play it and experience that consequence and dilema.

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seminole
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2010, 10:30:27 PM »
Here's a fun quote I had from a looper at Seminole during one visit...."I caddy at Winged Foot in the summertime, it's more of a 'working man's club' - this place is where the guys they work for belong."

Quote of the year so far, that is classic!

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