Seminole

[JC Jones]

I made this statement on a Seminole thread almost 2 years ago:

That being said, I would join Crystal Downs over any club in the world and you can only play that 6 months of the year.  (Maybe my opinions would change if I ever played ANGC or Seminole...)

I was extremely lucky to have played Seminole this past Sunday.  I was also lucky to have had the chance to play it with Patrick Hodgdon (a.k.a. my punching bag).  We enjoyed a great day, even though our tee time was delayed due to abnormal morning rains.  That was fine because I got to over-indulge on ginger snaps while gazing at the bags from Shinnecock, Augusta and more sitting on the bag rack.  Suddenly my Pacific Dunes bag wasn't so impressive

After receiving the call from Patrick on Friday night that Jones-Hodgdon 3 would be taking place at Seminole on Sunday morning I proceeded to read everything I could find on this site and externally.  There is no way my expectations could have been higher; they were exceeded.  In various threads I read that the course did not live up to the clubhouse, it was more about the club than the golf course, etc.  Those statements are nonsense.

The routing of Seminole is unbelievably impressive.  The use of the dune ridges on the west, north and east parts of the property is phenomenal.  Ross takes you up, down, across and along the ridges at various points in the round.  At 4 different times in the round you visit the same part of the ridge and yet it doesn't feel crowded or forced.  In addition to that, there are very few places where 2 holes play in the same direction making the effect of the wind a constant part of your strategy throughout the round.  Our wind started out as west/northwest but by the 4th hole settled into a west/southwest wind for the rest of the round.  Pat Mucci is right that the wind has a cumulative effect throughout the round, which causes you to play a variety of shots.  I was literally forced to hit almost every club in my bag with seemingly alternating between fades and draws often times on the same hole where a draw is required off the tee and a fade is favored into the green.

Second to the routing, and a very close second, are the green sites.  The bunkering is strategic, the angles reward certain positions in the fairway and there is enough internal movement to make you think yet it is not overdone.  This is good because the wind affects not only your approach shots but your putting as well.  Several times the caddie said "this wont break as much as you think because the wind is holding it up."  If the greens were overly undulating or severe the greens would be ridiculous.  They are fast but not too fast and with the wind and certain pin placements, they really play 1/2 the size that they are.  The bunkers are hugely deep and pictures do not give them credit.  The bunker short left of #5, which is shown in one of the threads on here, is much deeper than it looks.  I was in it and I could only see the flag from the bottom of the bunker.  Many of the bunkers have crazy tongues and are amoeba-esque reminding me of the MacKenzie bunkers.

Lastly, and this goes again to the routing, the course uses the ocean perfectly.  At various points throughout the round you get to see it either from afar or from very up close yet the course remains independent of the ocean in its architecture.  I now understand why Pat Mucci says that a course must stand up architecturally apart from the vistas of the ocean.  Seminole does.  It uses the wind and the elements that come from being on the ocean without relying on it for eye candy.  There were several times throughout the round that I had no conscious realization of my proximity to the ocean yet it affected my play, whether it be the sand dune my ball was in on 6 or the wind.

In sum, Seminole is fun, strategic, sporty, intoxicating, stimulating, perplexing, invigorating, frustrating, amazing and fantastic.  And did I mention the ginger snaps?  Or the crackers and cheese spread?  Or the Lobster Bisque?  Or the fact that I had a conversation with someone there about Tom Paul?  Or that you are smacked in the face with Pat Mucci's name when you walk into the lockerroom?  And yet all of these things (well, maybe not Tom Paul) take a back seat to the golf.  Someone once said that they know a golf course is great if they walk off the 18th tee and want to immediately walk back to the 1st and go again.  I felt that way on Sunday and when we walked out and I looked back at the first tee, all I wanted to do was join the group who was teeing off.

Favorite holes - #2, 4, 5, 6, 12, 13, 15, 17 and 18.

Back to my opening statement, I haven't figured out whether Seminole has changed my position on Crystal Downs, all I can say is that it is the only course I've ever played that has made me consider it.  I can only pray that I am fortunate enough to play there again.

[Niall Hay]

JC, awesome post.

What was pace of play like? Were caddies mandatory and if so how were they? Conditions? Green speeds? Any pictures?

[Morgan Clawson]

Sounds great, but what about the clubhouse?  

Just kidding.  Sounds like a terrific day.  Maybe the rain was a blessing as you were able to spend a little more time there.

[Niall Hay]

The locker room in particular....

[JC Jones]

JC, awesome post.

What was pace of play like? Were caddies mandatory and if so how were they? Conditions? Green speeds? Any pictures?

There were less than 10 groups on the course, pace of play was not an issue.  Caddies were mandatory for us.  Patrick and I shared a caddie, he was a retired PGA Tour caddie and full of one liners.  Conditions were great, firm and fast generally except for a few of the low areas that were slower to drain from the monsoon we had.  No pictures allowed.  As the caddie said, "that's why they sell books in the pro shop."  I wasn't about to chance it by taking any pictures.  Though our caddie was kind enough to take a picture of our group on 17 tee.

[Niall Hay]

Sounds perfect.  Last pace of play question, how long did your round take?

Have you played the other great/good courses in the area and if so how do the compare?

[Keith Buntrock]

I sure hope the caddy had a white jumpsuit on, otherwise you wasted your time JC. 

[JC Jones]

Sounds perfect.  Last pace of play question, how long did your round take?

Have you played the other great/good courses in the area and if so how do the compare?

No clue on exactly how long the round took, one of those days where you never look at your watch!

I've not played Indian Creek nor Pine Tree (though I'd really like to) so I cannot compare but I have heard great things about both. 

[Wade Whitehead]

JC:

Can you describe one shot faced by a member of the group that sums up the beauty and/or challenge of Seminole?

WW

[Eric Smith]

No clue on exactly how long the round took, one of those days where you never look at your watch!

Excellent post JC -

Your one word text, reading 'unreal' was at 3:41 on Sunday.  Was this upon completion of your round or during? 

[JC Jones]

W2,

5th hole, par 3, 180 yards.  Due to the west/southwest wind this hole was playing both into the wind and with a crosswind.  At the time there was very little wind and the green is somewhat hidden by the trees on the border of the property.  I hit the six-iron of my life that was tracking right at the pin.  Right as the ball crested, the wind picked up, stopped my ball completely and worked it left into the 10+ft deep bunker short/left of the green.  I've not made more solid contact with a six-iron in my life and it was DEAD ON the flag for 90% of its flight.

[JC Jones]

No clue on exactly how long the round took, one of those days where you never look at your watch!

Excellent post JC -

Your one word text, reading 'unreal' was at 3:41 on Sunday.  Was this upon completion of your round or during? 

On the drive home.  The text was sent at 4:41 eastern time. 

[Ryan Farrow]

JC, I'm glad you enjoyed your round, and hell getting to play that thing is kind of a big deal.

but..... every "good" golf course I have ever seen is still miles ahead of Seminole. I haven't quite traveled like some on here, but I have gotten to see some damn fine golf courses in the last 3 or 4 years and Seminole, is just  plain boring.

And I've read what you have about how great the routing is, and how it takes such advantage of the 1 dune ridge but come on, this golf course can be duplicated pretty much anywhere with 1 big dirt move on a dead flat site (which begs the question, why hasn't it). I must have had the blinders on but I got a peak of the ocean once then a glimpse near the end, and then I had to stand on my tip toes to really see the ocean up close.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy into the hype, which is driven by the clubs desire to be "exclusive". And I really think the no picture taking policy is in effect because the course really doesn't look that great.... at all.


I still think its a great course but I wouldn't want to play it every day, and I certainly don't think it belongs in the top 25.


*Runs for cover!

[Bill_McBride]

W2,

5th hole, par 3, 180 yards.  Due to the west/southwest wind this hole was playing both into the wind and with a crosswind.  At the time there was very little wind and the green is somewhat hidden by the trees on the border of the property.  I hit the six-iron of my life that was tracking right at the pin.  Right as the ball crested, the wind p ;Dicked up, stopped my ball completely and worked it left into the 10+ft deep bunker short/left of the green.  I've not made more solid contact with a six-iron in my life and it was DEAD ON the flag for 90% of its flight.

Next time, grasshopper, you'll take an extra club into the wind!

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Ryan-

Out of the really good golf courses you have seen or played-- could you list the ones where you would rather play day in and day out than Seminole?

Mike

[Chuck Brown]

Ryan - let me give you my cellphone number, for the next time that you get word that you are needed as a fourth at Seminole but you are tied up playing at another, better golf course.   



JC - You won't escape the good name of Pat Mucci at Pine Tree either, I learned last winter.    
I expect that you'll be very favorably impressed by Pine Tree.   

[Ryan Farrow]

Sure:

NGLA
Friars Head
Bethpage
Shinny (judging from the road tour) There is a special place in my heart for snobby clubs!
Hunington Valley CC
Rolling Green GC
Oakmont
Riviera
Rock Creek Cattle
Rustic Canyon
Hell, I might even throw in Southern Dune, here in AZ if were talking day in day out.

But I think I would Take Seminole over the Valley Club of Montecito

[TEPaul]

Ryan Farrow:

I don't know you a lick so obviously the only impression I can form of you is what you write on here. In your post #12 you said you've played a number of courses, albeit perhaps not as many as some on here, and compared to them Seminole is just plain boring. In the middle of your post you don't have much good to say about Seminole but yet at the end of your post you allow as you still think Seminole is great.

Do you know what contradicting yourself is or sounds like, Ryan?  

I've known that golf course like the back of my hand for something like fifty years now and I will guarantee you that you are definitely not the first by a long shot who doesn't get it at all at first. I have to say, though, I never have met a golfer who knows that course over an extended period of time who doesn't admire it somehow and for some reason.

Do I understand why that is? No, I really don't but it does fascinate me to consider why some say what they do somewhat negatively about Seminole at first and others (who generally know it so well) seem to think of it so very differently.


Somebody on here asked what shot at Seminole is probably the most interesting and appealing. After having played it hundreds of times and with so many really good golfers I would have to say the tee shot to the 13th hole when the pin is up there on the right.  I can't recall a hole where so many seem to think they've hit a really good shot on that aggressive line to a pin up there on the right (over that raised above the tee diagonal bunker) and come up disappointed. The problem and beauty of that particular shot is you really can't play more club safe up on that line because you chance going right over that pin into a real world of hurt.

[Ryan Farrow]

Ryan Farrow:

I don't know you a lick so obviously the only impression I can form of you is what you write on here. In your post #12 you said you've played a number of courses, albeit perhaps not as many as some on here, and compared to them Seminole is just plain boring. In the middle of your post you don't have much good to say about Seminole but yet at the end of your post you allow as you still think Seminole is great.

Do you know what contradicting yourself is or sounds like, Ryan?  

I've known that golf course like the back of my hand for something like fifty years now and I will guarantee you that you are definitely not the first by a long shot who doesn't get it at all at first. I have to say, though, I never have met a golfer who knows that course over an extended period of time who doesn't admire it somehow and for some reason.

Do I understand why that is? No, I really don't but it does fascinate me to consider why some say what they do somewhat negatively about Seminole at first and others (who generally know it so well) seem to think of it so very differently.


Somebody on here asked what shot at Seminole is probably the most interesting and appealing. After having played it hundreds of times and with so many really good golfers I would have to say the tee shot to the 13th hole when the pin is up there on the right.  I can't recall a hole where so many seem to think they've hit a really good shot on that aggressive line to a pin up there on the right (over that raised above the tee diagonal bunker) and come up disappointed. The problem and beauty of that particular shot is you really can't play more club safe up on that line because you chance going right over that pin into a real world of hurt.

Tom, remember, I did run into you at the cabin with Kyle about 6 months ago. I was immediately deployed to China after that!



I'm not really denying what is great about Seminole. My problem is what Seminole is not, it is not appealing to me. When I was out there I could not help but thinking, joe the plumber could easily confuse this place with his local muni. That feeling stuck with me. Albeit the architecture is there, the challenging shot makers course is there, much like Oakmont. But I just felt let down big time. Like this is it, this is Seminole. I did not get that feeling at all from the other courses on my list. I guess its a feel thing for me.

Plus I'm completely irrational sometimes, so don't take me too serious.

The one thing I really enjoyed was walking around the course with the hole by hole Ross plans, comparing what was on paper to what was on the ground today. That was probably more enjoyable then it would have been playing the course.

[Ryan Farrow]

deleted

[TEPaul]

"Tom, remember, I did run into you at the cabin with Kyle about 6 months ago. I was immediately deployed to China after that!"


Ryan:

Oh, shoot---excuse me, that was you with Kyle was it? I apologize but you have to understand I'm an old guy now and I'm getting a bit daffy. Even before I was an old guy I was probably sort of daffy in the minds of some. By the way, it's not a cabin; it's a barn. But I remember you well now-----I felt you were an unusually confident guy and frankly I've always admired people who have a lot of confidence if it seems they have a fairly good reason to be confident.

Come back to the cabin, I mean barn, some day and we will get into discussing the aura of Seminole. You say you got deployed to China? Well no wonder you contradicted yourself in that post above. My observation is the Chinese can't even fathom the concept of self condradiction the way we can, which on some reflection is perhaps a positive on their part.

[TEPaul]

"But I just felt let down big time. Like this is it, this is Seminole. I did not get that feeling at all from the other courses on my list. I guess its a feel thing for me."


Ryan:

Believe me, I know what you're saying and I've seen that happen with so many golfers with Seminole who see it the first time compared to most any of the other great courses. The only other course I've seen this happen with to some extent even remotely comparable to Seminole is Maidstone----which might be in my top handful of favorite courses in the world but it sure is different from most of the rest of the so-called "greats."

I've never seen TOC but from what I've heard and read it is the mother of all misunderstood courses---at least at first.


Actually, Ryan, I hadn't read this thread before responding to your post. But now I have and I see that J.C. Jones played Seminole for the first time and judging from that gloriously positive initial post of his about the course it appears he loved it the first time out. So, what do you think, Ryan, should we gang up on J.C. Jones on this thread and tell him for the next 35 pages that he's full of shit?

[TEPaul]

Ryan:

Vis-a-vis the IM I just sent you here's my story about the fascination of Seminole (at least to me) I still struggle to explain the real meaning of.

My dad belonged there for many decades and I always knew the course from maybe the 1960s on. But it wasn't until around the early 1980s when I started to play good tournament golf that I really got to know that course. In the 1980s it was considered sort of tough compared to the course I played down there most of the time (Gulfstream) but nevertheless back then, and on some reflection after studying architecture it was still sort of sleepy, if you know what I mean. In the 1980s I could go up there any time and count on not shooting more than say 75.

And then this cousin of mine, Barry Van Gerbig, became the president of Seminole and he did some stuff to the course and he initiated the Coleman tournament. I went down there and played in the first one, and the course sort of looked the same to me but it played so different from the way I'd always known Seminole and I always thought there was nothing about it that was much different. I didn't think there was even anything remotely over-the-top about the setup (although a lot of other players did). I even hit the ball well that first day but nothing was happening the way I'd always known that course and after that first round was over I'd shot a 90 and was I ever embarrassed. In those days in all the 40 or so tournaments I would play yearly I just about never shot out of the 70s.

When I came back the next day I sure was embarrassed but somehow I was given a caddie who was the best I'd ever had in my life and I'd previously pretty much made a habit of never depending on a caddie for much of anything, putts, clubs, whatever. But somehow this guy got into gently coaching me around that course shot after shot and particularly if I got into some trouble and at the end of the second and final round I'd shot a 2 under 70 that might have been the low round of the day, and frankly I didn't even think I had hit the ball as well as the day before when I shot that embarrassing 90. The difference between that first and second round was so stark I even got temporarily roasted at the tournament dinner.

That's when Seminole really hit me and after all those years and again there was nothing over the top about it in my opinion. It was really tough but it was totally fair. I should have realized my "Ideal Maintenance Meld" theory right then and there but it would take me some years and pretty much the same thing at NGLA's National Singles tournament to put the pieces together.

Have you ever known a girl for some time who sort of wears baggy clothes or whatever and then for whatever reason some day and for some reason she take them all off---and you look at her and say to yourself-----My God, I had no idea at all what was underneath! That's what I learned about Seminole in that first Coleman and after all those year of seeing the course in a sort of sleepy member's set up state.

 

[Dan Boerger]

I've played Seminole a sum total of once. (And, upon reflection, I think it was with a relative of Tom P's!) I'm an avid but average golfer.

The wind wasn't really up too much and after a couple holes I, too, started to wonder what the excitement was about.

I was playing ok that day, and later in the round the course was becoming more and more impressive. Wonderful green sites, great routing, great use of undulation, etc. My host, I'm guessing a 25 year+ member, said around the 14th hole is where he always feels the course starts to repeat like a great symphony. What a great summation, IMO.

[JC Jones]

JC, I'm glad you enjoyed your round, and hell getting to play that thing is kind of a big deal.

but..... every "good" golf course I have ever seen is still miles ahead of Seminole. I haven't quite traveled like some on here, but I have gotten to see some damn fine golf courses in the last 3 or 4 years and Seminole, is just  plain boring.

Why?

And I've read what you have about how great the routing is, and how it takes such advantage of the 1 dune ridge but come on, this golf course can be duplicated pretty much anywhere with 1 big dirt move on a dead flat site (which begs the question, why hasn't it). I must have had the blinders on but I got a peak of the ocean once then a glimpse near the end, and then I had to stand on my tip toes to really see the ocean up close.

Any golf course can be duplicated anywhere with dirt moving, haven't you heard of the countless "tribute" courses out there?  So I'm not sure why that is relevant.

So courses get their architectural value based upon the vistas?  Instead of being upset because you didn't get to stare at the ocean all day, tell me what, architecturally, the course is lacking?  Perhaps the greatness of Seminole is that it doesn't have to rely on the ocean vistas to distract from the golf course.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy into the hype, which is driven by the clubs desire to be "exclusive". And I really think the no picture taking policy is in effect because the course really doesn't look that great.... at all.

There are plenty of exclusive clubs out there that don't get the "hype" that Seminole does.  Perhaps it is because they dont have a world class golf course.  The course doesn't look great?  Maybe you aren't down with the brown.

I still think its a great course but I wouldn't want to play it every day, and I certainly don't think it belongs in the top 25.

You do recognize the contradiction in your post, right?  How can a course be boring and great? 

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the architecture though, given that you are an architect; I find the insight of people in the business to be very informative.