Fazio v Nicklaus -- who has the better top ten layouts amongst them ?

[Matt_Ward]

Someone asked me this when I was sitting in an airport lounge heading back from Hawaii late last year. The guy I met at the airport lounge was a heavy duty traveler and he noticed a bag tag on one of my carry-on items with a Red Ledges logo (a Nicklaus layout).

We talked about favorite courses and I mentioned to him how the economy might impact two of the more higher profile designers -- Nicklaus & Fazio.

He indicated to me his preference for Fazio layouts -- he liked what he did at Pronghorn -- I told him I favored the Nicklaus courses there but by the tiniest of margins. We then went back and forth about what these two forces had provided on the USA front alone.

I have my own listing of their respective top tens and I do have what the guy gave me as his -- much of it is rather similar but there are differences.
Be happy to post both w rationale after others have done so.

Curious to know how people on this site would rank the top ten Nicklaus and Fazio layouts -- just one quick FYI, both of us had Muirfield Village towards the bottom of our respective top tens for Jack and ditto the same for Fazio with Shadow Creek.

[Scott Weersing]

Looking at the Golf Week Modern 100 courses

Fazio
10. Shadow Creek
17. Wade Hampton Club
25. Dallas National
33. World Woods, Pine Barren
34. Galloway National Golf Club
41. Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry)
46. Karsten Creek
50. The Preserve
51. Pronghorn Fazio
53. Trump National

And that is the top ten. There are more- 54. Briggs Ranch, 55. Fallen Oak, 63. Victoria National, 79. Estancia, 80. Whisper Rock (Upper), 81. McArthur Golf Club, 89. Flint Hills GC, 91. Forest Creek GC (North)

Nicklaus
7. Sebonack Golf Club
11. Muirfield Village
31. Castle Pines GC
38. Mayacame GC
60. The Concession
65. Shoal Creek
84. Valhalla

And so Nicklaus has only 7 in the top 100. I would say Nicklaus' best course is better than Fazio's best course. But not by much.

But then I could also say that Coore and Crenshaw, Doak and Dye each have two courses that are better than Nicklaus' best course.

[Wade Whitehead]

Nicklaus is so prolific I have a hard time digesting his work.

I think most players of the game prefer Fazio, hands down.  I think most GCA-type guys would lean towards Nicklaus.

WW

[Jim Nugent]

Scott, I question whether Nicklaus' top two-ranked courses are really his courses.  Most importantly, he didn't do the routing. 

[Peter Ferlicca]

You forgot Cabo Del Sol for Nicklaus which is a fantastic course.  IMO top 5 for Nicklaus.

[Ronald Montesano]

W Squared,

Why would most GCA guys prefer Nicklaus courses?  I know that it is trite, but they require the high fade, in contrast to the low slice and high pull favored by most amateurs.

Next, Fazio seems to roll alone, whereas Sebonack is due in part to Mr. Tom Doak, living, and Muirfield Village, to Mr. Desmond Muirhead, deceased.  I believe this clarifies the insinuation made by Mr. Jim Nugent above.

For me, the great unknown in the Fazio list is Wade Hamption...it has floated between 10 and 20 on many lists, yet due to no events there and a remote and smokey location, gets little press.  Who has played it?  Who can elaborate on its worth?

Right now, I'd say Tom Fazio over Nicklaus.

[Kyle Henderson]

I've seen a handful of Nicklaus layouts, several of them "signature designs," including Sherwood CC, Diablo Grande-Legends, Ruby Hill CC, Dismal River, and Palmilla.

Ruby Hill is pretty bland. The others are decent layouts, but perhaps not quite as good as they might have been relative to the sites IMHO. I find that his courses look pretty and play conventionally. I would prefer a few more subtleties around the greens to allow for imaginative recovery play. Average design rating at a B or B+

I haven't really had the chance to sample Fazio's original work -- I've only played he renovations at The Finley Course (UNC) and Edgewood. I'd love to sample Victoria National first and foremost.

Still, if I were investing my own money in a project, and hoping to profit, I'd be inclined to hire one of these two firms purely for their name recognition and consistently good, if not great, track records. Nicklaus' design career is the reason we now know the names of people like Doak, Hanse, etc.

[cary lichtenstein]

I'd pick Fazio. More consisent work over his career. His better courses are better. While Nicklaus has done some ecellent work, I think it is pretty much limited  to only 1 of his leuteniants.

[Matt_Ward]

Cary:

Love the general comments -- care to fill in with a bit more details on the course front ?

[Dale Jackson]

Nicklaus' design career is the reason we now know the names of people like Doak, Hanse, etc.

Kyle, I am not clear about this comment.  I would have thought Pete Dye's name belongs in that sentence.

[Ronald Montesano]

I love the comment but understand the misunderstanding.  Dye clearly is a positive influence on those chaps, while Kyle is suggesting that Nicklaus, et al, are the negative influences.

[Matt_Ward]

On the Fazio side from the ones I have played include the following:

*in no particular order of emphasis ...

Victoria National
Glenwild
Dallas National
Galloway National
Karsten Creek

From those I have not played thus far but have received rave reviews include:

Martis Camp
The Alotian
Goozer Ranch

Others I have played that are thought of highly but would rate lower for me:

Wade Hampton
Trump National / Bedminster
Black Diamond (Quarry)
Shadow Creek
Pronghorn


Be curious to see what others add for TF -- the Nicklaus listing to follow ...

[Bart Bradley]

Matt:

I definitely believe that Diamond Creek is one of Fazio's best that I have seen.  His work on the greens at Diamond Creek is particularly strong:  good use of contour and strategic green design.  The other course that I have heard good things about that you did not mention(playing it Friday so I'll let you know) is World Woods Pine Barrens course.

Bart

[Kyle Henderson]

Nicklaus' design career is the reason we now know the names of people like Doak, Hanse, etc.

Kyle, I am not clear about this comment.  I would have thought Pete Dye's name belongs in that sentence.

Pete Dye stated (if memory serves, in the forward he wrote to "Nicklaus by design), that is is because of Jack's noteriety and the quality of work produced by his prolific firm, that golfers are now so keenly aware of those who designed the courses on which they play. For instance, Dye grew up playing courses by Donald Ross, but had no idea who the man was until he began to buld courses himself.

[Kyle Henderson]

I love the comment but understand the misunderstanding.  Dye clearly is a positive influence on those chaps, while Kyle is suggesting that Nicklaus, et al, are the negative influences.

That's not what I'm saying. My point is that Nicklaus helped shine the spolight on the GCA profession.

[astavrides]

You forgot Cabo Del Sol for Nicklaus which is a fantastic course.  I would say top 5.

I haven't seen the news today.  Did the US annex Mexico?

[Brian Phillips]

You forgot Cabo Del Sol for Nicklaus which is a fantastic course.  I would say top 5.

Top five of what?

[Brian Phillips]

I love the comment but understand the misunderstanding.  Dye clearly is a positive influence on those chaps, while Kyle is suggesting that Nicklaus, et al, are the negative influences.

That's not what I'm saying. My point is that Nicklaus helped shine the spolight on the GCA profession.

Kyle,

In what way?

[Matt_Ward]

What's interesting about the Nicklaus list is how people give Jack very low involvement with his own layout in Dublin, OH -- claiming Desmond Muirhead was more responsible. You also have people who lean towards giving Doak the bigger share of the pie when Sebonack is discussed.

Given that -- I'll leave both of them to the side and simply post the best Nicklaus I've played. Curious to hear from those who have played Jack's layouts which ones strike the most fancy. I do admit the TF listing of layouts, on first glance, is quite impressive.

[Matt_Ward]

Should have mentioned from the get-go -- I meant to say the top ten for each man from just USA layouts.

On the Nicklaus front ... (minus Sebonack & Muirfield Village which were co-design creations)

The best I have seen includes:
(in no particular order)

Red Ledges
PGA National / Champ
Desert Highlands
Ocean Course at Hammock Beach
Traditions Club at Texas A&M
The Club at Pronghorn
PGA West / Nicklaus Private
Desert Mtn / Outlaw & Chiricahua
Castle Pines


Among those I have not played but have received high marks:

May River
The Idaho Club
The Bear's Club
The Concession
Mayacama

Among those outside my top ten lsting:

Shoal Creek
Coyote Springs / The Chase
Hokuli'a

will provide other info shortly ...



 

[Pete_Pittock]

I have not played enough of both to come up with top 10s, but based on head-to-head at resorts

Pronghorn - Fazio over Nicklaus
Reynolds Plantation - Niclaus over Fazio
Kiawah Island - Nicklaus over Fazio.

Where else have they gone head to head?

[Kyle Henderson]

I have not played enough of both to come up with top 10s, but based on head-to-head at resorts

Pronghorn - Fazio over Nicklaus
Reynolds Plantation - Niclaus over Fazio
Kiawah Island - Nicklaus over Fazio.

Where else have they gone head to head?

Querencia is adjacent to Palmilla, though not part of the same resort. Anyone played both?

[Tom_Doak]

Pete Dye stated (if memory serves, in the forward he wrote to "Nicklaus by design), that is is because of Jack's noteriety and the quality of work produced by his prolific firm, that golfers are now so keenly aware of those who designed the courses on which they play. For instance, Dye grew up playing courses by Donald Ross, but had no idea who the man was until he began to buld courses himself.

Kyle:

Your source material for this needs some work.  Pete Dye did not grow up playing courses by Donald Ross, but near the end of WW II he was stationed at Fort Bragg, N.C. and often visited with an elderly Donald Ross at Pinehurst.  He also visited Mr. Ross' brother in Dornoch in 1963 or '64 when he first went over there.  So he knew who the man was well before he began to build courses himself.

Mr. Dye is not dismissive of either Jack Nicklaus or Tom Fazio, nor they of him, but they tend to be dismissive of each other's work.

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle:

Your source material for this needs some work.  Pete Dye did not grow up playing courses by Donald Ross, but near the end of WW II he was stationed at Fort Bragg, N.C. and often visited with an elderly Donald Ross at Pinehurst.  He also visited Mr. Ross' brother in Dornoch in 1963 or '64 when he first went over there.  So he knew who the man was well before he began to build courses himself.

Mr. Dye is not dismissive of either Jack Nicklaus or Tom Fazio, nor they of him, but they tend to be dismissive of each other's work.

I dug up my copy of "Nicklaus by Design" and found the following quote in the foreword:

"“Because I’ve worked with him so closely, people often ask me about Jack’s place in the pantheon of golf course architects. Well, there have been golf course designers for centuries. But as of the early 1970s, when Jack got into the business, the idea of tying a course to an architect’s and that architect’s particular style was unheard of. Ever wonder why so many Donald Ross courses no longer exist? It’s because for a long time no one placed a value on a name. For the first 70 years that golf was played in the United States, a course was just a place to play golf, and the architect was no better known or regarded the greenkeeper. Quick, how many greenkeepers can you name?

Jack changed all that. His mere presence in the business lent credibility to all of us. Established architects like Robert Trent Jones became even more successful. Only after Jack gave birth to the notion of tying a name to a course did veteran, retired, and even deceased designers begin to get the credit due them. Here’s a good example. During World War II, I was stationed for a time at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Through the good offices of a golf-loving colonel on base, I played Pinehurst No. 2 every day for six months. I loved golf and I was good at it. But back then, I honestly couldn’t have told Donald Ross from Betsy Ross. " -Pete Dye


I was very close...

[Matt_Ward]

One of the things that I see holding back Nicklaus versus Fazio is that plenty of the Bear's layouts have likely been played by a much fewer lot than the TF ones. I say that from the info one sees posted on this site.

The USA courses I listed for Fazio have been discussed quite widely here.

You often don't get much info -- although there is some -- for the likes of what Jack has done at Red Ledges, Traditions Texas A&M, Outlaw at DM, or even an older layout such as Nicklaus Private at PGA West which is quite solid and one of the best golf options in the PS area.