[Adam Clayman]

Since the world was introduced to this course when Herr Doak put up the pictures of the raw land, and, I've been around a little too long....

Checkout this article on one of GCA.com's love children.

http://www.linksmagazine.com/golf_courses/united_states/colorado/ballyneal_golf_club_tom_doak_colorado_golf.aspx?ht=

[Jeff_Brauer]

I found this interesting.....

"The critic compelled to find fault might notice that none of the short par 4s turns right, or that fairway shaping on a few holes is too “perfect”—good tee shots result in agreeable lies more often than randomly expected."

I haven't played it, and it looks wonderful.  But, there was a discussion on this recently and at least a few thought this and the green contours were course flaw. 

In general, do we think a well played shot ought to be rewarded or has "risk/reward morphed to “risk/frustration” in some of our top end modern designs?

[Garland Bayley]

"The par 4s on the 7,147-yard layout measure either less than 385 yards or more than 460 yards, and all three par 5s are reachable in two shots."

Tom sure likes his half par holes. Anyone ever make up a scorecard for the place that comes out to par 69.5, 70.5, or 71.5?
 

[Adam Clayman]

The critic compelled to find fault might notice that none of the short par 4s turns right, or that fairway shaping on a few holes is too “perfect”—good tee shots result in agreeable lies more often than randomly expected.

 This strikes me as some sort of litmus test for a critical eye. If one believes short par 4's need to turn right, or, good drives that find agreeable conditions for their next, is a source of criticism, then we might as well add the fact that there are no trees, to the list of inherent flaws at Ballyneal.

Jeff, As for the greens being too contoured, that is relative to the speed, and, apparently, the critics ability to putt. There are creative ways to utilize other slopes to get the ball close, or at least into a reasonable position. From a poor positioned approach, these contours can, and do, act as air breaking opportunities. In the case of a difficult pin position, only the most astute of golfer will be able to figure out the prudent (or creative) play. That implies that sometimes playing away from the hole is required to complete the task at hand.

  One needs to be open to the opportunity to be creative with how they play the game at Ballyneal. It's not like anything else generations of golfers have ever seen.

 Ballyneal wasn't designed for the typical Country Club golfer. (Thank the Lord) It was designed for those of us who were sick of the status quo of products coming online (Jammed down our throats) for far too long. Think Decades.

 From my perspective, the freedom Tom was given, on one of the finest mediums, led to maximizing the ground for golf in a way usually associated with Links golf. The principles found at The Old Course and those originally designed in at Augusta Nat'l are alive and well in the most unlikely of places. Farthest from, but surrounded by, Oceans..  

Garland, Actually we break it down into tenths (0.10) using a complex set of equations that factors in the temperature, wind speed and direction, and the thump caused by the lack of rain or when the last time the Super turned on the system. The funny thing is that Par still works out to be 71 and is completely irrelevant compared to the enjoyment of the shots attempted.

[JESII]

Adam,

Very poetic.

But are you serious with this comment below?

  One needs to be open to the opportunity to be creative with how they play the game at Ballyneal. It's not like anything else generations of golfers have ever seen.

Ballyneal is as high as anything else on a list of courses I'd like to see, but to suggest it's completely unique among generations of courses would make me ask...What has ever been created that could be discussed in the same class?




Jeff B

In general, do we think a well played shot ought to be rewarded or has "risk/reward morphed to “risk/frustration” in some of our top end modern designs?

I think the architect has to fall short of great if they try to guarantee anything. It sounds like John thinks Tom might have tried to increase the odds of a good lie (short of a guarantee) and it sounds like you htink that's either a good thing, or not quite enough but in the correct vein...

How can anything be guaranteed in golf?

[JESII]

I think I should say...it's a failing to guarantee a RESULT as opposed to guaranteeing an OPPORTUNITY.

[Garland Bayley]

The critic compelled to find fault might notice that none of the short par 4s turns right, or that fairway shaping on a few holes is too “perfect”—good tee shots result in agreeable lies more often than randomly expected.

 This strikes me as some sort of litmus test for a critical eye. If one believes short par 4's need to turn right, or, good drives that find agreeable conditions for their next, is a source of criticism, then we might as well add the fact that there are no trees, to the list of inherent flaws at Ballyneal.
...

Sounds like a valid criticism to me. May be minor, but valid. If Indian Canyon can be criticized for turning almost all its doglegs one way, Ballyneal needs to get the same treatment.

[Bill_McBride]

I am excited about seeing for myself in June.  It sure sounds great and the photos are intriguing.  I love the idea that it's fast and firm and can't wait to see in person.

[Mike Demetriou]

What a coincidence. The quote on Shackelford's site today, while not 100% on point, is very appropos:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/

The middle of the fairway - except for perhaps once in the round for the sake of variety - should never be the true line to the hole.
TOM SIMPSON

[Sean_A]

I finally ventured to the website and was surprised to read that one can play unaccompanied by a member - one time.  I assume this is a recruitment tool.  I am surprised the club isn't full.  Anyway, I may have to give Ballyneal.  Does anybody know how serious a "potential member" has to be or is it accepted that some play for the kick of it and like me, would have no intention of joining?

I never liked this quote.  Its seems too final and typical of Simpson's hyperbole.

"The middle of the fairway - except for perhaps once in the round for the sake of variety - should never be the true line to the hole."
TOM SIMPSON

Ciao

[JESII]

I'm not familiar with his hyperbole, but what did he think would be granted to a player finding the 'true line'?

[Garland Bayley]

...
I never liked this quote.  Its seems too final and typical of Simpson's hyperbole.

"The middle of the fairway - except for perhaps once in the round for the sake of variety - should never be the true line to the hole."
TOM SIMPSON

Ciao

I prefer Simpson's hyperbole than the existing situation where the middle of the fairway is the true line to the hole on all the 14 or so driving holes most of the courses Tom Doak would rate 3 or less.

[Sean_A]

I don't know, assuming some bonehead hasn't stuck a tree in the middle of the fairway, it shouldn't really be a bad place to be.  Perhaps not ideal, but not bad.  For sure it has to beat the alternatives outside the fairway or something is amiss. 

Ciao

[JESII]

Sean,

Was that to me or Garland?

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Was that to me or Garland?

Jim

Call it a rant - tee hee. 

Back to Simpson, I am sure his nirvana was the best angle to the flag and that should not (too) often be the direct line to the flag. 

Ciao

[Adam Clayman]

Adam,

Very poetic.

But are you serious with this comment below?

  One needs to be open to the opportunity to be creative with how they play the game at Ballyneal. It's not like anything else generations of golfers have ever seen.

Ballyneal is as high as anything else on a list of courses I'd like to see, but to suggest it's completely unique among generations of courses would make me ask...What has ever been created that could be discussed in the same class?




Jeff B

In general, do we think a well played shot ought to be rewarded or has "risk/reward morphed to “risk/frustration” in some of our top end modern designs?

I think the architect has to fall short of great if they try to guarantee anything. It sounds like John thinks Tom might have tried to increase the odds of a good lie (short of a guarantee) and it sounds like you htink that's either a good thing, or not quite enough but in the correct vein...

How can anything be guaranteed in golf?

Sully, If I understand your question...and, yes I was serious.... from what I have seen, only the Bandon Courses, Talking Stick North, Sand Hills, Wild Horse in Nebraska, and a few others like Wine Valley, Friars Head, (Have not seen) belong in the same class. That class could be called American Links. Non-dictated designs that test more than a golfer's ability to dial in a yardage with the expectation that their ball will end up a few feet away from where it lands.

Generally, most of the courses built for decades have only questioned, and provided for, the aerial assault version of the game.

Sean, Exposing non-members to the course is multi faceted. Not only allowing for prospective new members to access, there is some altruism in allowing those truly interested in GCA to see it. You however are welcomed as my guest anytime. That should ensure you seeing it for more than one round and save you a few quid besides.
 

[JESII]

Thanks Adam...fair enough. I read the post as being unique even among those examples cited.

[Jim Nugent]

I read on the internet that Holyoke is 3736 feet above sea level.  How much does that affect the distance the golf ball travels, and how long the holes at Ballyneal play? 

[RJ_Daley]

From my few experiences, altitude has very little or nothing to do with anything.  Wind, width and firmness of FWs and greens along with contour are the factors that effect how long it plays.  Not to mention the freeform, no specific starting blocks where you can 'decide 'where to play from.

As I reflect on my time there, the issue of no right turns on par 4s is also irrelavant, as is the notion of some feeling of a comfortable or assured LZ if the ball is placed in proper spot.  With the firm and fast conditions, and wind, coupled with the green complex contours, nothing is comfortable or assured.  Tantalizing maybe, charmed yes, but assured or comfortable is not an emotion I'd ever feel playing BallyNeal, nor would I ever want to feel those comfortable or assured emotions in a round on such a unique "American Links" course as Adam has named them.

[Thomas Patterson]

I read on the internet that Holyoke is 3736 feet above sea level.  How much does that affect the distance the golf ball travels, and how long the holes at Ballyneal play? 

In my one and only visit to Ballyneal last September, I had about the same distance as I had in Denver while playing there the last few years (just moved to SC in November).  I would say maybe a 5 yard increase if you are coming from somewhere around sea level. 

I would guess the biggest determination on how long the course plays is which way the wind blows.  We had wind in our faces on all but 4 holes (1,2,17,18) on both days we were there.  However, the course never felt "long" as we played from various tee boxes on every loop. 

Just my thoughts from my 2 days there.  It's an incredible place that definitely deserves ever bit of praise it receives.  I would LOVE to have an opportunity to go there just once more in my life.  I still dream about those golf holes and the fun I had on my visit.

[Adam_Messix]

I think John Kirk makes a good point and I would take it one step further.  There is not a SINGLE golf course in existence or any course that no longer exists that someone can't (or couldn't) find fault with if they are really looking for reasons for criticism.  This includes all of the holy grails of golf club atlas;  Pacific Dunes, NGLA, Royal Melbourne, Cypress Point, The Old Course, Pine Valley, Sand Hills; etc.

If a person doesn't prefer Ballyneal, they don't need to go back. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Adam,

I am all for "hit it here to get it there" architecture.  The complaints I hear about TD work isn't all about the concept of that (although some is) but that the area to land the ball and achieve results is too small for all but a handful of players.  If you could create a punch bowl, but it was only ten yards wide on a 200 yard shot, so that most people hit the outside of it, is that good architecture?  That, BTW is just an example, as again, I have not played Ballyneal, but the question is valid - what % of players who recognize the demands can actually execute?

Jim S,

I don't think I wrote anything about guaranteeing anything, nor did I read the Links article to mean that a good tee shot was aimed mindlessly to the middle of the fw.  In fact, I presumed that it would be a left or right side shot. 

Again, I am not critiquing BN since I haven't played it but asking a legit conceptual question - if you recognize a strategy and execute it, is it good architecture to negate that with a slope to the rough, or a rumpled lie, or is it better to reward it, conceptually speaking?  Is no good option good strategic architecture?  Or, if you prefer to think in degrees, what % chance of taking risk is there for the thinking golfer if the chance of reward is 50% or less based on experience?

I do applaud using contours as defense in place of the standard bunkers for a lot of reasons, BTW, but am just trying to envisage just how they are used.

[JESII]

I found this interesting.....

"The critic compelled to find fault might notice that none of the short par 4s turns right, or that fairway shaping on a few holes is too “perfect”—good tee shots result in agreeable lies more often than randomly expected."

I haven't played it, and it looks wonderful.  But, there was a discussion on this recently and at least a few thought this and the green contours were course flaw. 

In general, do we think a well played shot ought to be rewarded or has "risk/reward morphed to “risk/frustration” in some of our top end modern designs?

Jeff,

Maybe I presumed too much when I used the word "Guarantee", but your use of the term "risk/frustration" screams about a lack of fairness in the context of John's comment/critique about good tee shots getting good lies more than occassionally...in my opinion, a quest for fairness can only result in mediocre holes and courses.

What do you think?

[Kyle Henderson]

I read on the internet that Holyoke is 3736 feet above sea level.  How much does that affect the distance the golf ball travels, and how long the holes at Ballyneal play? 

It should be around 5%. See reply # 123 in the thread below.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35401.105/

Adam,
Great comments about the originality of Ballyneal's design.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

I don't think risk/frustration is more than a catchy term. In reality, it is a matter of degrees.  But am I going to bust my butt trying to carry a fw bunker if the result is going to be likely to be kicked into the rough or will I just play to the middle of the fw if all the lies are rumpled and I will have less chance of a bad result?

IMHO, hard courses become less fun if there is no reward.

As to fair, I will admit to sort of mixing and matching experiences on other Doak courses, while never seen Ballyneal other than photos here.  At PD and the Rawls there are some greens, not all, where a swale or hump in the middle of the green is such that I hit a mid iron in, in windy conditions, and the green contours took that shot off the green to a spot way down in a hollow several yards from the green.  I have to admit I said, "WTF is this all about?"  I suspect most golfers would prefer a well struck shot hit on the green stay on the green. 

More than most golfers, I can admit that there are courses I am just not good enough to play regularly and admit that there should be some courses built for razor sharp accurate shots or even creative shots as we discussed above.  (especially for creative shots) 

So, this is probably not the thread to ask that kind of philosohpical question of to what level golfer should a target be attainable by reasonable golf.  However, when I start such philosophy threads, they don't get as much traction as applying those questions to existing courses.....

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