[Tony Weiler]

Perhaps this will come as a shock to some, but there are people in this world who enjoy the simple pleasure of playing golf independent of the course's architectural merit. 

Blasphemy!  On this site, howe dare you, sir!   

[Matt_Ward]

Jim K:

I won't lose any sleep if you see things differently than me. In fact -- I'm quite pleased you do see things differently.

Knock yourself out and enjoy FL golf for what it is.

I'll take the four (4) courses I mentioned and how them against the likes of just about any four people can mention -- especially those that have recently opened in the last 10-15 years.

[Kevin Lynch]

Whenever the discussion about quality Florida Golf courses turns to a discussion about the weather, I think that supports JC / Matt’s position.

If a Florida course defender mentions the weather, it reminds me of answering a blind-date question like “is he handsome?” with “he’s really funny.”  If you need to deputize the weather into your argument, that’s a bit of a concession. 

Besides, my experience with Florida Relatives is that the “year-round” golf is a little bit of a myth.  When the temp gets below 50, it’s viewed as the equivalent of 30 here in Buffalo.  Plus, the “year round” golf in the summer has to includes the caveat “until noon.”

In December, I played a course in Buffalo at 32 degrees.  Two weeks later, I was in Florida and it was upper 40s.  There were more golfers at the Buffalo course.   

A final benefit of Buffalo vs Florida - in Buffalo, I've never hit a shot from the edge of the water and asked my playing partners to "scream if you see anything moving in the water."

[Kevin Lynch]

Setting the weather aside –

I played a handful of courses in Orlando and Tampa (in addition to watching tour events, taking photo tours, surveying general topography / courses from the air), and my own personal feeling is that they do very little for me.  I wouldn’t go as far as JC as condemning them as Doak 0s, but I think any neutral observer would have to admit that the topography severely limits the ability for an “awe” factor and leads to an over-reliance (IMO) of water as a hazard.  That lack of natural elevation changes inherently limits the variety of interesting challenges you can pose to a golfer, and leads to the “sameness” that I think gives FL courses a negative reputation.

I generally dislike water as a hazard, because it eliminates creative recovery opportunities.  I like hazards that can deliver a wider variety of penalties, but still give a chance to “make up” for a marginal mistake with a great recovery.

And I love the unending variety of challenges an architect can deliver with elevation changes, whether it be blind approaches, sidehill lies, distance adjustments, etc. – on top of the simple aesthetic pleasure I get from valleys & hills.

Of course taste in a course is subjective, but those items make it very hard for me to be moved by the Florida courses I’ve played or viewed.  We have flat areas here in Western New York, and I get the same feelings about those courses, too.  Glen Oak is a RTJ design with very good shot values and strategies (formerly ranked Top 75 Public in US), but I’m simply not moved by it (it reminds me of the courses I’ve played in Florida).

But if you need to bring weather into the equation, I’d rather play most NY courses at 35 degrees than any I’ve played in Florida at 75.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Would you say that many, if not most, of your evaluations of Florida courses in "TCG" were "drive by" ratings.

I believe you gave Boca Rio a 4 and Adios a 5.

The golfing "universe" rates Boca Rio well above Adios, so there seems to be an enormous disconnect with your assessment of those two courses.

I believe one reason for the flaw in your assessment of Boca Rio is that you never played it.

You also gave The Medalist a 7 and Pine Tree a 6.
You're the only person I know who rates/places The Medalist above Pine Tree.
Did you play both courses ?

Perhaps, now that you may be spending more time in Florida, you'll get a chance to play and re-evaluate some of your earlier "drive by" ratings 

Lake Nona a 7 ?

Kevin Lynch & Matt Ward,

Your introduction of the weather and your position relative to the weather is narrow minded, and strictly a "tourist" or "snow bird" mentality, one that ignores the views of full time residents.

There are dozens and dozens of courses I'd rather play in 75 degee weather in Florida than ANY in 35 degree NY.
You just haven't had the pleasure of playing them

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim K:
I won't lose any sleep if you see things differently than me. In fact -- I'm quite pleased you do see things differently.
Knock yourself out and enjoy FL golf for what it is.
I think the reason we will always see things differently is you put too high of a value on your opinion, and in this case it's not shared by millions of other golfers. I might be inclined to see it in a similar light as you if I had as much invested out there as you do.

I'll take the four (4) courses I mentioned and how them against the likes of just about any four people can mention -- especially those that have recently opened in the last 10-15 years.
There are 8 or so courses in Fl that make it onto the 3 major rating lists. Even if the consensus found on those lists places the 4 courses you mentioned higher up in the ratings it doesn't change the fact that the Florida 8 are worthy of inclusion.
What you preach fits into a very narrow band, which is surprisng for someone who professses to have traveled so far and wide.

[Kevin Lynch]

Your introduction of the weather and your position relative to the weather is narrow minded, and strictly a "tourist" or "snow bird" mentality, one that ignores the views of full time residents.

Patrick,

I’m not sure what that means.  I don’t think Matt was trying to bring weather into the equation – if anything, he was trying to take weather OUT of the equation.

I mentioned the weather because in these discussions (Doak 0 thread / Why I Hate Florida Golf Thread), you usually have some full-time resident making a statement like “the golf is better here because you can do it year round.”  My light-hearted joke was that such statements were a “deflection” (ala “he’s really funny”).

As for not reflecting full-time residents’ views, I thought I was.  My relatives are full-time residents, and it’s their input I reflected when discussing the “year-round myth.”  By their own admission, they get spoiled by ideal weather and it reduces their available times.  They eliminate days under 50 and still think it’s too hot to play after noon in the summer.

In contrast, by necessity, we snow-birds don’t get so choosy and seem to accept a wider range of playing conditions (hence, 38 degrees and sunny in December = bag line).

I wasn’t trying to be “narrow-minded,” just having some light-hearted fun comparing the two very different mentalities towards “sub-optimal” conditions.

[Kevin Lynch]

There are dozens and dozens of courses I'd rather play in 75 degee weather in Florida than ANY in 35 degree NY.
You just haven't had the pleasure of playing them

Please understand, I’m not trying to support the thesis of the OP.  I’m sure there are a number of good courses in Florida.  What I’m saying is that it’s entirely possible that one of the highly regarded courses may still do nothing for me because of the inherent limitations of topography and higher presence of water.

And as you suggested, many of the residents prefer water as an aesthetic, which is fine.  I recognize that everyone has their own style of course which is better suited to their tastes.

I started another thread asking for impressions of Tampa Palms, as I was trying to determine if my negative experience there was due to:

A)  The fact that it may be deemed a bad design (even by Florida Residents), and I should try another example to get a better feel for what Florida Golf has to offer

or

B) Whether it is deemed one of the better designs by Florida Residents, at which point I would have to conclude my experience was due to my own taste preferences (to each his own). 

[Jud_T]

Kevin,

I agree with you about the water, however, everyone keeps talking about the flat ground as the basis for a bunch of weak tracks.  What they should be talking about is the lack of great green complexes and a variety of possible approaches....Flat doesn't equal bad or charmless by definition....

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Thanks for telling me how my position / re: the weather is "narrow-minded."

Pat, by all means knock yourself out and play FL to your heart's content.

You see FL in a far different light. So be it -- for you.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim K:

Let me help with any possible misunderstanding of my previous post.

My opinion is mine -- simple as that. You then chime in with "it's not shared by millions of other golfers." OK Jim -- when did you presume to speak for all those mllions? If you meant to say it's not shared by you -- that's fine by me.

I mentioned four stellar layouts that have opened in recent times. The sad reality is that remote courses and a number of those that have opened recently in the mountain time zone get little broad awareness. No doubt places like Ballyneal and Kingsley have been touched upon extensively here.

You state that eight ( "or so courses in FL" are deemed to be top tier layouts because of their existing rating. The sad reality is that so much of FL is overexposed and benefits from being seen / played than the other courses I mentioned. I just named four -- there are additional ones that can easily push out all but say the top 2-3 FL courses that are now included. You say my opinion "fits into a very band" -- hello Jim -- but I base my comments in having been to those varied locations and being able to cross compare on how they match it when weighed together. If you feel so enamored with FL golf by all means knock yourself out and enjoy them to the max.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim K:
Let me help with any possible misunderstanding of my previous post.

My opinion is mine -- simple as that. You then chime in with "it's not shared by millions of other golfers." OK Jim -- when did you presume to speak for all those mllions? If you meant to say it's not shared by you -- that's fine by me.

I never presumed to be speaking for them. There are that many people who golf in Florida so your lone voice is hardly going to make a difference.

I mentioned four stellar layouts that have opened in recent times. The sad reality is that remote courses and a number of those that have opened recently in the mountain time zone get little broad awareness. No doubt places like Ballyneal and Kingsley have been touched upon extensively here.
You state that eight ( "or so courses in FL" are deemed to be top tier layouts because of their existing rating. The sad reality is that so much of FL is overexposed and benefits from being seen / played than the other courses I mentioned. I just named four -- there are additional ones that can easily push out all but say the top 2-3 FL courses that are now included.

Guess what Matt, their time may or may not come. Until then your bias against Florida golf is so apparent that it really diminishes your ability to be seen as an objective reporter. It's obvious that you are overly invested in the West. 
 
You say my opinion "fits into a very band" -- hello Jim -- but I base my comments in having been to those varied locations and being able to cross compare on how they match it when weighed together. If you feel so enamored with FL golf by all means knock yourself out and enjoy them to the max.

I said narrow band, and it continues to show in just about everything you write about Florida.

[Kevin Lynch]

Kevin,

I agree with you about the water, however, everyone keeps talking about the flat ground as the basis for a bunch of weak tracks.  What they should be talking about is the lack of great green complexes and a variety of possible approaches....Flat doesn't equal bad or charmless by definition....

Flat does not necessarily mean charmless, but it sure does make things difficult.  I don’t envy the task of any GCA that has to work with very flat land, and throw in an abundance of water to boot.

As you say, a GCA can help mitigate the “sameness” with some creative complexes, but I think the lack of elevation change or interesting topography really limits the variety that can be created.  When I think of exciting approaches, they usually involve added challenges such as adjusting for elevation changes, dealing with obscured vision, or uneven lies.  Much of that ammunition seems to be taken away from the GCA.  Further, given the flat canvas, that GCA is always having to fight an uphill battle of not looking “contrived.”  For those GCAs that can make it work, I say “Bravo” because I appreciate the challenge they face.

It just seems to me that without very high level GCAs, the topography is inherently going to lead to homogeneity of design that is more evident than in more topographically diverse states.  The last Florida course I played featured 6 approaches that were green / railroad ties / pond abutting green (and that was just the back nine!).

I don’t doubt there are very good golf courses that make it work in Florida.  I suppose the root of these types of threads is that mediocre design work is going to be more glaring in a state like Florida.   Every state is going to have its share of mediocre GC design work (assuming the bell curve holds true).  But if you took two GCAs of the same mediocre skill and gave one 5 plots of land in Florida and the other 5 plots of land in New York, I think the “weakness” of the Florida work is going to stick out more, simply because the NY architect will “luck into” variety due to the topography. 

Is that a more reasonable observation than the “99% of Doak 0s?”

[Matt_Ward]

Jim K:

I write my opinions to expose my thoughts. Simple as that. Let me point out to you -- again -- you are the guy who chimed that millions of people see it dfferently than I do. Geeze Jim, I didn't know you can speak for those millions of people. Congratulations for being able to do such a wonderful thing.

You then write about my bias -- guess what Jim -- it's shared by others and I would prefer to call it my own personal preference -- Doak included as much when he wrote CG. Others feel likewise. I tried to explain -- sadly you may not still get it -- that in my many travels I do see and play a far wider array of courses than others do. I simply said -- that such courses are even better than many might imagine and that those which are receiving such high exposure -- not just the FL layouts -- should be pushed out because of the overwhelming qualities I previously outlined. Please name any four FL courses you belive can exceed the qualities of Ballyneal, Rock Creek, Kingsley and Black Mesa. Happy to debate that at anytime.

Let me point out to you -- again -- I have saluted a number of courses throughout the southeast -- I am a big time fan of Pinehurst #2, The Ocean Course at Kiawah, to name just two. I have also mentioned a few FL courses that are well done but also receive little attention -- Ocean Course at Hammock Beach is one that quickly comes to mind. Jim, FL has very, very few courses that are unique or rise much more than a 4-5 on the Doak scale. I see -- in your mind I am not objective because I take such a tough line on courses that are frankly overly repetitious in how they present themselves.

I also live in the Northeast and have posted high / low marks no matter where the course(s) is located. I've been to FL countless times and I am looking forward to playing a few of the courses that were mentoined to me that are in the greater Orlando area. Like I said if you love FL that much by all means knock yourself out and enjoy what's there. I'll take the ones  I mentioned , plus a number of others and be quite content.

[Jud_T]

Matt,

I appreciate your honesty....Obviously the locals' feathers might get ruffled a bit.  I have similar sentiments about the Chicago area...With better raw land there are only a handful of really interesting layouts out of a cast of hundreds....

[cary lichtenstein]

Is the OLD COURSE flat like Florida?

[Jim_Kennedy]

That's not honesty, thats bluster. Has Matt seen even 5% of what the state has to offer? I highly doubt it, yet he's happy to condemn the entire state. Let me think, how many times have I heard Matt say that you can only rate something if you play it? Hundreds!!!!

Given the fact that there are over 16k places to play in the US, and that golfer's desires are mostly for good conditioning and fair price, is it any wonder that the Doak 3s and 4s are going to be the most widespread? Why bother trashing an entire state's portfolio of golf courses because you think there are a few better ones out west? Why take it out on one state because you think the product in another is being overlooked. How invested in these western courses are you Matt?
Does Colorado suck as bad as Florida? Montana? Are there any great courses in Montana? If so, does 'it' make up for the rest?  How about Nebraska? Do the several exceptional courses make up for what must be little different than the average 3 or 4 found elsewhere?

I think adding two slices of bread and a little mustard to your argument will give you a baloney sandwich. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt, Kevin, et. al.,

If I were to guess, I'd guess that a "northerners" view of Florida golf courses is mostly confined to those courses more readily accessable to a "snow bird/flake", rather than the many private courses, like the one's being used as the basis of comparison, such as Winged Foot.

And, many of those Florida courses cited are residential courses, such as Mountain Lake, rather than "stand alone" golf courses, which would be the equivalent of Winged Foot.

Hence, I believe the comparisons are flawed for several reasons.

# 1, the Florida sampling is far to small
# 2, the Florida sampling seems to be limited to clubs dissimilar in function and/or clientele from the benchmark
       courses in the North.
# 3, Flat land, ie, TOC, is not a disqualifying factor for good architecture.

Conversely, one could ask: In Metro NY, name one good to great course associated with a residential community ?
 

 

[Dean Stokes]

I believe comparing Florida courses to courses in let's say North Carolina, Denver or Long Island is like comparing apples to oranges. Florida should just have it's own set of rankings for Florida. The northern areas have one thing Florida doesn't - elevation!!! It seems a little odd to try and compare courses built on totally flat land to courses that have the advantage of hills and slopes. There are still very good courses in Florida and some fine architecture but it will always struggle to compare due to it's topography. It is not a fair fight!

[Mike Sweeney]

Conversely, one could ask: In Metro NY, name one good to great course associated with a residential community ?
 

How about five:

Pine Valley - small in number but it is a housing tract and its own incorporated town with a Mayor

Sleepy Hollow - Tilly came in to redo the course so that land could be sold for houses

Whippoorwill - Same model as Fishers and Mountain Lake with the Olmsted brothers. Separate entities today and no gate but it is a housing course. (see: http://whippoorwillassociation.com/home.html) From North Castle town history, "Whippoorwill as a place to live has continued to attract golfers and nongolfers alike. Its high points still offer the unparalleled views cited in the brochure of the early or mid- 1920s. No longer an adjunct to Club membership, Whippoorwill has, nevertheless, matured as its founders envisioned."

Fishers Island - Modeled after Mountain Lake.

Sebonack - okay it is a really expensive time share, but the course business model does not work without the "cottages".

PS. I forgot Garden City Golf Club developed by The Garden City Company!!

[Sean_A]

A flat property should not preclude an archie from building a very good course.  I would say a flat property with a small budget might be a problem if a quality course is the goal.  When was it that folks decided that flat land equals average/poor golf? 

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Dean,

What's wrong with having one set of criteria for all courses? How else can they be judged? If anything, having a different criteria for Florida does a disservice to the, perhaps few, really good courses that are there...As for land, have you ever played Lawsonia? Essentially an average piece of Wisconsin farmland with phenomenal green complexes....Sure maybe it's a Doak 6, or 7 post tree removal, but I dare you to name a half-dozen better courses in Florida...

[Kevin Lynch]

Matt, Kevin, et. al.,

If I were to guess, I'd guess that a "northerners" view of Florida golf courses is mostly confined to those courses more readily accessable to a "snow bird/flake", rather than the many private courses, like the one's being used as the basis of comparison, such as Winged Foot.

And, many of those Florida courses cited are residential courses, such as Mountain Lake, rather than "stand alone" golf courses, which would be the equivalent of Winged Foot.

Hence, I believe the comparisons are flawed for several reasons.

# 1, the Florida sampling is far to small
# 2, the Florida sampling seems to be limited to clubs dissimilar in function and/or clientele from the benchmark
       courses in the North.
# 3, Flat land, ie, TOC, is not a disqualifying factor for good architecture.

Conversely, one could ask: In Metro NY, name one good to great course associated with a residential community ?
 

Patrick,

I’m not trying to compare your everyday Florida residential course to Winged Foot – that would be absurd (and just to clarify, I’m from Western New York – the Metro NY area is a completely different planet).

To some extent, you may be right that the “snow birds” may have limited access to the private clubs, which may skew their perception.  But, in a way, that’s kind of the point.  When most people travel (whether visiting NY, NC or FL), they’re not getting onto the elite Private Courses.

I think the “negative perception” comes from a sameness and lack of interesting design in the “average” course that a traveler could play in Florida, when compared to the “average” course in other states (unless you love water hazards).

So, to your points:

1)  I would admit that the sampling is small, but I have played both daily fee courses in Florida as well as a Private Club which has hosted a Champions Tour Event.

2) That may be true for some other posters, but my observations are based on your “average” public access in FL vs public access in other states.

3)  I agree that it’s not disqualifying.  However, I think it makes it much more challenging and requires much more effort by the GCA to make it interesting.  If a GCA gives a “mediocre” effort in FL and a “mediocre” effort in an area with better topography, the FL course is simply going to be less interesting because of the inherent handicapping.

Taking Florida’s name out of the equation, the general theme here is that “Courses built in areas with flat topography will generally be less interesting than other areas.”  It just so happens that Florida has an abundance of that topography relative to the number of Golfers.  The same could be said about other flat states, but they generally don’t have the same density of golf courses to make the “sameness” so apparent.

Believe me, we have a number of horrific tracks up here in NY in flatter areas, it's just that they're fewer in density (and don't have the annoyance of water everywhere - my own admitted bias).

[Kevin Lynch]

There are still very good courses in Florida and some fine architecture but it will always struggle to compare due to it's topography. It is not a fair fight!

Exactly - it's not a personal attack on the Golf Courses, just a pretty objective observation about topography.  Similarly, I can't argue that Northern Weather is warmer than Florida - nothing personal, it's just fact.  In both cases, you just need more perserverance to overcome the obstacles.

For Florida Golf - the archies need to put in much more effort to make flatter land interesting.

For Buffalo Golfers - we need to develop a hearty attitude and embrace playing golf in 35 degrees.  It may be harder, but not eliminating.  It helps to be inspired by an approach up a 40 foot hill, which will yield a view of the surrounding valley when you get there, or a downhill 2nd to a green cut in a hillside.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Bluster -- surely you jest !

My father used to have an expression -- you can work with ignorance you can't help stupidity. Geeze, Jim I was just trying to help you. Sorry if the message can't penetrate.

Jim, I've played most of the key candidates in FL -- ask yourself this -- did Doak himself play all of the courses before making his own conclusion about the state in CG?

One other thing -- get some extra thick reading glasses -- I have highlighted a number of FL courses that are quite good -- they're just not THAT good in my mind to rate national attention of a top 100 grouping. Big difference amigo.

Yes, I have played nearly all of the key candidates - I have listened quite closely to those who have recommended other layouts and it's my hope to play them when in the greater Orlando next week for the PGA Show. My mind is open Jim -- contrary to what you erroneously believe.

Jim, let me try again and see if this can sink in -- the issue is not about average or better than average golf courses -- it's about how many really are worthy of national acclaim and feature truly compelling architecture of the highest order. FL has benefited from the exposure it gets -- plenty of people visit there. I never said the whole state sucks just that so much of what others -- likely yourself included --  believe that what is there is bulletproof or STILL worthy of top honors.

I also highlighted -- through my travels -- that a number of areas in the USA -- already have top tier places that are not getting their overall due. I mentioned those facilities specifically.

Jim, great tactic -- always try color the opinions of another by using the broad accusation that something beneath the table is involved here. That's rubbish. I have no interest in any places I mention here beyond the passion I have for the game. Better yet -- don't take my word for the places I mentioned -- consider what others have said about the four places I mentioned.

I never said that everything called golf in westen states mentioned is bulletproof. I simply said -- read it again Jim please -- that there are high caliber layout worthy of even MORE attention than they are getting now. Like I said before -- knock yourself out and play to your heart's content in FL -- if you think you can name four FL courses that can top the likes of a Ballyneal, Rock Creek, Kingsley and Black Mesa please let me know.  





Jud:

You are spot on with your comments ... one criteria can certainly work.

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