[JC Jones]

Lets start the discussion with a definition of a Doak 0:

A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

Tell me how this doesn't explain most courses in Florida as most are extremely contrived, anything but natural and have been built with ridiculous sums of money.

[JESII]

I've played probably 30 Florida courses and would only put 2 or 3 in that category...with admittedly zero knowledge of the cost to build any one of them.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I'd be likely to believe that they exist in Fla, but I've never played one.

[Tom Dunne]

Contrived and unnatural, yes, but I'm not sure how wide-ranging the "wasted ridiculous sums of money" criterion would be. So many Florida courses were just barfed up on the cheap as real estate amenities in the '60s. In recent years, architects like Bobby Weed have done a great job in converting some of them into courses you'd want to play.

[PThomas]

well, since there are 1000 or so courses in Fl, if i can name 11 that refutes your argument:

Seminole
Pine Tree
Jupiter Hills
W Woods - 2
TPC
Innisbrook
Hammock Beach - 2
the flynn in Miami
Bay Hill

I win!

seriosuly, that's quite an overstatement JC.....

[Adrian_Stiff]

Only played a few but a closer statement would be 99% are not a Doak 0. Golf courses come in all forms and not all sites are blessed with cifftops, ocean views and great soils. Learn to respect what some architects do with shit soil, flat sites and even more so if they are on tight budgets.

[Jim_Kennedy]

JC,
I'm going to answer you here, even though your question comes from the other Fla thread.

If you look at the ranking lists from the top 3 mags you'll see (I think) 7 or 8 different Fla courses on them. That may seem a small number in comparison to the 1,200+ places to play in the state, but 2/3 of those places weren't built to make the magazines in the first place. Of course, neither were most of the golf courses built in any state of the union.

Additionally, Pat Mucci makes a good point about the terrain in Fla. where many of the golf courses were built. It is close to the oceans and it's fairly flat, while all the rolling, hilly sections of the state are smack dab in the center, where no one was visiting until Disney showed up in Orlando some 40 + years ago.

Interesting terrain has its merits, but contrary to what Matt Ward believes, one of the reasons the new batch of western courses are so 'good' is because they all are trying to be on some list or another. There are 100s of mediocre courses for every one potentially 'great' venue in any western state you can name, and those courses fall into the same category as what's strewn about Fl, with better views. 

[jeffwarne]

Lets start the discussion with a definition of a Doak 0:

A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

Tell me how this doesn't explain most courses in Florida as most are extremely contrived, anything but natural and have been built with ridiculous sums of money.

I'm planning a trip for the PGA show right now(4-7 courses) and the hardest thing I'm having to do is narrow down the choices because there are so many good accessible courses within 1 1/2 hours of Orlando.
I think an unconnected player traveling to the New York Metro area would have a hard time find as many quality(affordable) accessible courses in a 1 1/2 hour radius. Even Bethpage is an awful experience(other than the course itself) and is not cheap for an out of stater.
It's like Myrtle beach-who cares if there are 100 crappy courses if you can get on 5-10 good-great ones?
And if you live there find a good courses an join it.

Paul -
add
brooksville CC
The Dunes
Southern Dunes
Mountain Lake
Lake Wales CC
Victoria Hills
Deltona Hills
Dunedin
Juliette Falls
Golden Hills
Black diamond
Crenshaw and Coore course in Clermont
Macarthur
and a host of others (doral,Medalist, Loblolly ,etc.) that aren't 0's

and you definitely win



and I don't even know Central and North  Florida-that's just based on a once a year 3-4 round trips to the PGA show

[George Pazin]

Methinks you are spoiled.

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

....and I hope you're enjoying your hour and ten minutes more of daylight, too! 

[Mike Sweeney]

Lets start the discussion with a definition of a Doak 0:

A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

Tell me how this doesn't explain most courses in Florida as most are extremely contrived, anything but natural and have been built with ridiculous sums of money.

JC,

When was the last time you played a Doak 0 in Florida?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lets start the discussion with a definition of a Doak 0:

A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

Tell me how this doesn't explain most courses in Florida as most are extremely contrived, anything but natural and have been built with ridiculous sums of money.

JC, your above statement would seem to indicate that you have little familiarity with courses in South Florida.

Where did you obtain the information that led you to post your conclusion that courses in South Florida cost ridiculous sums of money ?

In addition, tell me how Pine Tree, Seminole, Boca Rio, Doral, Jupiter Hills Village and Hills are extremely contrived and unnatural ?

Don't believe everything you read 

[Garland Bayley]

Clearly you people are confusing the 99% that JC meant. You are thinking of the 99 out of 100, 99%. He meant the other 99%.

[JC Jones]

Lets start the discussion with a definition of a Doak 0:

A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

Tell me how this doesn't explain most courses in Florida as most are extremely contrived, anything but natural and have been built with ridiculous sums of money.

JC, your above statement would seem to indicate that you have little familiarity with courses in South Florida.

While I do have very little familiarity with courses in southeast Florida, I'm not sure how the above statement indicates that.

Where did you obtain the information that led you to post your conclusion that courses in South Florida cost ridiculous sums of money ?

I never said anything of South Florida, I said Florida (which, contrary to popular belief, extends North and West of "South Florida."

In addition, tell me how Pine Tree, Seminole, Boca Rio, Doral, Jupiter Hills Village and Hills are extremely contrived and unnatural ?


I can't as I've not played any of them.  However, even if the ones you list are not extremely contrived and unnatural, that does nothing to refute my statement.



Don't believe everything you read 

Dont worry, I dont.

[JC Jones]

Lets start the discussion with a definition of a Doak 0:

A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

Tell me how this doesn't explain most courses in Florida as most are extremely contrived, anything but natural and have been built with ridiculous sums of money.

JC,

When was the last time you played a Doak 0 in Florida?

October.  I posted a thread about it.  I'll show you pictures when we are at NGLA and The Creek next summer.

[JC Jones]

JC,
I'm going to answer you here, even though your question comes from the other Fla thread.

If you look at the ranking lists from the top 3 mags you'll see (I think) 7 or 8 different Fla courses on them. That may seem a small number in comparison to the 1,200+ places to play in the state, but 2/3 of those places weren't built to make the magazines in the first place. Of course, neither were most of the golf courses built in any state of the union.

Additionally, Pat Mucci makes a good point about the terrain in Fla. where many of the golf courses were built. It is close to the oceans and it's fairly flat, while all the rolling, hilly sections of the state are smack dab in the center, where no one was visiting until Disney showed up in Orlando some 40 + years ago.

Interesting terrain has its merits, but contrary to what Matt Ward believes, one of the reasons the new batch of western courses are so 'good' is because they all are trying to be on some list or another. There are 100s of mediocre courses for every one potentially 'great' venue in any western state you can name, and those courses fall into the same category as what's strewn about Fl, with better views. 

I played West Palm Beach GC last week.  Its on the flat dunes land of southeast Florida.  It is not a 0.

[Jay Flemma]

JC, I'll agree with you that a great amount of golf in Florida underwhelms - including the overpriced Victoria Hills - but I can't go so far as to say 99% is a Doak zero.  I'm sure there are a few zeroes...but the Dye Course at PGA Village is quite good, Sawgrass and Amelia Island are nice places to play, and World Woods is a treat.

Orange County National, on the other hand, made me want to bite a radial tire it was so boring.

[JC Jones]

Jay,

All I ask is that you read the definition and argue that most Florida golf courses are not "contrived and unnatural."

[Jay Flemma]

JC I think you are lumping in too many courses and reading the definition too strictly.  I don't like VicNat or Southern Dunes or PGA Village's Fazio courses, but they aren't zeroes...2s or 3s maybe, but not zeroes.  The policy behind a zero is to punish courses that basically think they are entitled to a US Open or tour stop because they threw money at the architect, but are really severely under-designed and overpriced.

[JC Jones]

Jay,

Reading words to literally?  Now that is funny.

Here are the definitions of Doak 2's and 3's

2. A mediocre golf course with little or no architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. As my friend Dave Richards summed up: “Play it in a scramble, and drink a lot of beer.”

3. About the level of the average golf course in the world. (Since I don’t go out of my way to see average courses, my scale is deliberately skewed to split hairs among the good, the better and the best.)

[Tom_Doak]

JC:  I've got to agree with Jay.  I must have reviewed 30 courses in Florida for The Confidential Guide, and I don't remember handing out any zeroes there ... mostly 5's and 6's.  Of course those were the cream of the crop, a lot of courses in Fla. would be 2's and 3's ... but so would a lot of courses in Chicago and Michigan.

I'll be back in Florida a week from today trying to change that.

[JC Jones]

JC:  I've got to agree with Jay.  I must have reviewed 30 courses in Florida for The Confidential Guide, and I don't remember handing out any zeroes there ... mostly 5's and 6's.  Of course those were the cream of the crop, a lot of courses in Fla. would be 2's and 3's ... but so would a lot of courses in Chicago and Michigan.

I'll be back in Florida a week from today trying to change that.

If you need help with the routing, just send me a pm, I'm happy come up there to help.  


Interesting that the "cream of the crop" in Florida is a 5 or a 6 whereas in Chicago and Michigan it would be 9.  I think that speaks even more to the overall quality than my statement of the courses being a 0.

[Steve Lang]

   ok JC... now back to school

[JC Jones]

  ok JC... now back to school

Not for another week....winter break is 5 weeks for the professors

[Jim_Kennedy]

JC,
You've been supplied with quite a few courses that aren't zeros, and I could give you quite few more, including several Ross courses, and places like Mission Inn, etc., but I don't think it will matter. It seems that you have decided, in the face of what will probably be a continuing stream of evidence to the contrary, to believe what you want.

So be it, but a credibility gap can happen if you are willing to maintain a position that has been so easily shown to be false.

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