99% of Florida Golf is a Doak 0

[Patrick_Mucci]

But when it comes to the non-6-figure golfers visiting another state, my experience is that Florida is extremely limited for those golfers (at least compared to other states I’ve visited). 


How is it limited ?
And, what's the extent of your experience in Florida ?
How many times have you been there and to what locations ?

The public access golf in Florida is non-descript, which is not a statement you can easily say about Ohio or North Carolina. 


What public access courses have you played in Florida ?
Ohio ?
North Carolina

Again, I may be pleasantly surprised to discover otherwise, but I think your own statements indicate that this demographic is largely overlooked, and courses are built to suit home-owners or kept “easy” for resort golfers.

Again, the comparison should be between courses designed for the same end user

If you want to talk “apples-to-apples,” I think a Stanley Thompson design in Ohio for $50 holds up very well against a $250 Tom Fazio design like Emerald Dunes.

The price to play is irrelevant.

The land acquisition and development costs in the course you reference in Ohio were cheap and amortized over 50+ years.
You can't compare that to the cost of land and development in Florida today.

With your position would Sebonack ever get any consideration for being able to hold up against any golf course built 50 to 100 years ago ?

[Kevin Lynch]

Kevin,

It just means that I retracted something I had written after further reflection...Not a comment on you at all.....

Thanks, I was just curious if it was something commonly used here.

[Kevin Lynch]

Kevin,

I think i am correct in saying Emerald Dunes is private and when it wasn't, did it really get to $250 a golfer?

Yes, it did.  Not sure where it stands now with the Foreclosure actions started in May 2009.  The $250 fee was something I saw on a few websites - not sure if it was referencing what the fee used to be.  However, given the steep green fees I've seen at other Fazio Public Access Courses (usually the Country Club for a Day type), that number seemed feasible.

[Kevin Lynch]

Kevin

Your playing the wrong courses. Go play Deltona, Sugarloaf and Highlands Reserve. All were less than $50 durung the holidays and I would guess they would match up with Ohio publics. Bill Steele my partner at Sugarloaf from Columbus would know better. World Woods and Mission Inn would probably be just north of $50.

Mike,

Thanks for the suggestions.  I thought Sugarloaf was Private (from several websites), but the others you suggested may indicate I have just had a very bad string of recommendations from locals (perhaps they think I'm dying to see lots of sand & water).

I had one very bad suggestion when I played in Orlando.  I honestly can’t remember the name anymore, but I think it was some derivation of “Links at…”, and was “discounted” to $150.  Most of the suggestions you gave seemed to be more Central Florida, so I may have been given a dud.

After that, I’ll admit most of my perception is driven by the Tampa / St. Pete area.  I’ve played a Private (Tampa Palms), Resort (Vinoy) and several publics including one rated highly by local websites (Mangrove Bay).  In addition, several relatives / friends that have moved to Florida have given me their comparative perceptions, which is generally that the courses aren’t as interesting.  To some extent, that may simply represent a bias towards hills & valleys aesthetics on our part.

If you have any better suggestions in Tampa/St. Pete, I’d be glad to give it a try.  I’m certainly not going to “boycott” golf when I visit (and they’ve told me many times they’re not coming back here to freeze their tails off – but I think they’ve just gone soft.  )

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike Sweeney,

Sleepy Hollow, Sebonack, Fishers Island and Garden City aren't golf courses within a residential community, they're private clubs, and as such, shouldn't be compared to resort courses or gated community courses in Florida.

Try apples to apples, not apples to orangutans

Pat,

Oops, you skipped over Whipoorwill. Feel free to join my wife in saying, "Yes Mike you are right." 

Sleepy, Sebonack, Fishers and Garden City were are started with real estate components.

That's not true,

What is not true?

and it's disengenuous for you to equate residential community golf courses in Florida with the courses you cited.
One does not have to be a resident of Fishers Island in order to be a member of Fishers Island.
And, being a resident of Fishers Island does NOT convey membership at the golf course.

1. I have an old friend who lives inside the gates of Sleepy with his wife and kids - in a house, not the clubhouse.

Your argument fails because living within the gates DOESN'T automatically convey membership at Sleepy Hollow

There are many people living at Bay Hill that are not members of the club as one example in Florida.
And, those living outside the gates CAN be members of Sleepy Hollow ?

Same at Bay Hill.
Does you wife know how to get in touch with me ?

2. Fishers had a huge resort hotel attached to it, that had a mysterious fire. It was started by the Olmsted brothers who were the Toll Brothers of that era, and today you still go through the gates to get on the club property. You do realize that all of the east end of the island (houses, golf course, beach club) is the Fishers Island Club?


One does not have to be a resident of Fishers Island in order to be a member of Fishers Island golf course.
And, being a resident of Fishers Island does NOT convey membership at the golf course.[/b][/size]



3. Garden City started as a public course. The golf course was built to help sell lots in Garden City. Do you need a page number to the advertisement in your Club history book that states "lots and villa plots for sale on easy terms" ? 

Once again, you have your facts wrong, or, at the very least, convoluted.

What about Garden City being a public course?

One did not have to be a resident of Garden City in order to play the golf course and residence in Garden City did NOT convey membership to the golf course.
Agreed, same as Mountain Lake today.
Garden City GC was not created as any part of Stewart's purchase and development of 7,170 acres

4. Pat if the search engine worked here, I could pull up old threads where YOU questioned the placement of the Sebonack cottages.

Mike, the cottages are NOT owned by the members, they're a club convenience made necessary because of Sebonack's relatively remote location and the lack a quality nearby hotels.  Youre attempt at comparison fails miserably.

Pat, I don't have a traditional time share in Florida, I have a 40 year lease that can be bought and sold. There are lots of ways that lawyers skin a cat in real estate. The point is Sebonack did start with a significant real estate component in comparison to Shinnecock, National and Southampton GC and the course tuned out very well.

Please have your wife call me the next time you THINK you're right.

She has a chip on her shoulder about  BC too, you guys would get along great!

The old dead guy courses evolved into what they are today because of wars, depressions, recessions and other long term issues.  How is this not relevant to what is going on today in Florida and other places? In some way or another, real estate was factored in when they were building all theses courses, yet they all turned out great.

It's different because the demographic is radically different.
Residential community golf in Florida essentially targets retirees, older men and women, and vacationers who can afford resort prices.
You don't see an abundance of  young couple with three kids living in those residential, gated communities.
There's NOT the broad spectrum of members at a residential gated community in Florida like there is with the membership at Winged Foot and other clubs used in the comparison.

Like most things on GCA, we agree that this is true for 95%, it is just the other 5% where you and my wife are wrong!
Have your wife call me collect.

People like you who think you're right are annoying those of us who really are

Have your wife call me on my 24/7 toll free hotline

[Kevin Lynch]

Patrick,

If you still want to compare private to private, you can have that discussion with Matt.  My only experience with a private in Florida was a disaster, but I’ve chalked that up to an exception.

When you ask “how is it limited,” my response is partially by cost and partially by topography.  In order to convert flat swampland, I would think it takes quite an investment to do so (increasing the cost on top of the higher acquisition outlay).

When you say “cost is irrelevant,” then I think we have to agree to disagree.  Sebonick isn’t even on my radar in this discussion – remember I’m considering the perspective of someone who doesn’t have connections to private clubs or make 6 figures so he can play Pinehurst #2 at his whim.

Look, I’m not trying to be inflammatory and make hyperbolic statements like the OP.  You’ve said that many of the public access and resort courses are built to a different end user (retirees / snow-birds not wanting a challenge).  From my experience with Public Access in states like NC (Tobacco Road / Tot Hill Farm / Southern Pines / Little River) or Ohio (Sleepy Hollow / Manikiki / Thunderhill), that doesn’t seem to be a limiting factor.  

And, once again, I’ll freely admit that my perspective may be skewed by my own bias towards hill & valley aesthetics.  You may come up to one of my “golf course 9 months / ski-resort 3 months” and think the place is a poorly conditioned gimmick.  I’m not the type that obsesses about perfect conditions, and the thrills made possible by elevation changes can overcome a number of other factors.  

And with the suggestions made by Mike, I may again be pleasantly surprised.

[John_Cullum]

If you have any better suggestions in Tampa/St. Pete, I’d be glad to give it a try.  I’m certainly not going to “boycott” golf when I visit (and they’ve told me many times they’re not coming back here to freeze their tails off – but I think they’ve just gone soft.  )

Try the folowing, in no particular order:
Dunedin
Temple Terrace (private)
Palma Ceia (private)
Bloomingdale
Babe Zaharias
Lake Jovita, North or South
Innisbrook Copperhead or Island

Drive an hour north and play WorldWoods, Dunes, or Brooksville CC

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin,

I think you're ignoring a critical factor when it comes to price.

The seasonal nature of the pricing model.

Do people from all over the country flock to the course you referenced in Ohio in the summer ?

People from New England, the Midwest and Europe come to Florida in the Winter.
Some stay a few days, some a week, some a month, some for the season, thus driving up the cost.
If you played those same courses in June, July and August, the pricing would be radically different.
So, you can't view price in a vacuum, you have to understand the tremendous seasonal influx of golfers, demand and pricing.

Golf in southern Florida moved, like residential communities, from the coast inland.
Development moved inland because land was cheaper, not more expensive, hence, many new courses are offset from the coastline.
As to the cost to build a golf course in south Florida, I don't imagine that it's substantively more or less than anywhere else, absent unique permiting and site issues.

[Tony Weiler]

I'm pretty sure that right now, even if all of Florida were a Doak 0, I wouldn't care.  Havn't played a round in over 3 months, I have 3 foot of snow in my yard, unlikely to play here until April, and it's going to be 30 below (fahrenheit) windchills this week.  I can't wait for WW Pine Barrens.  3 weeks cannot come soon enough.  So, it can be 100% Doak 0 and I wouldn't care (fortunately, TD gives Pine Barrens an 8 so it's worth going  ).  TW