[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

I guess off the top of my head in answer to why Wilson didn't reach out to P&O prior to November 1913, there are any number of possibilities.

For instance, the William Evans article mentions that the course is built on sandy loam.   At that time, everyone from CB Macdonald to George Crump were under the (mistaken) impression that such a surface was ideal for building golf courses and growing grass.

In fact, the whole nature of Macdonald's letter to Merion after his initial site visit was to put them onto some folks like P&O who could help with inland, clay based soils, which were much different from what Macdonald was working with out at NGLA.

Also, it's tough to tell from the letters, particularly the second one, exactly what Geist was trying to accomplish and whether it was even related to the first course.   Reclaiming nearly 50 acres of marshland sure doesn't sound like the Bay course to me....and early accounts mentioned Geist's plans for a second course.

Now, the letter that is germane is trying to drain the five holes that were built in the lowlands because even today those holes stay relatively wet and my bet is they are below sea level.   So, it was probably only when they ran into some trouble, or realized that their original optimism about the site wasn't quite well-founded in all respects, that they reached out to P&O.

I mean, Wilson was already deluging P&O with constant letters just based on trying to get golf going inland on clay at Merion, and I'm sure he wanted to be sensitive to the fact that they were helping him greatly, free of charge, yet taking a lot of time to do so.   To then introduce another course, on another site, with much different types of soils had to be something Wilson was sensitive to introducing as a topic to these guys.   Your own quote of Wilson to P&O when the West course was first contemplated in December 1912 shows that he was a discerning fellow not wanting to exhaust that valuable resource;

"We are contemplating building eighteen more holes, possibly next year, and will still continue to bother you for a while".

Or, perhaps Wilson, being located in Philadelphia at the time when a trip to Atlantic City was a couple hour train ride both ways and already having a lot going on at Merion just did a site visit and layout design of the course for Geist, and then worked with Pickering and/or Robinson on construction, largely from a distance?   He certainly had faith in Pickering's agronomic abilities, the man being a grass expert himself, having built according to Alex Findlay literally hundreds of courses by this time.  

I just don't see any of this as some great mystery, or beyond very reasonable speculation.  

[TEPaul]

"Wilson was involved in a continuous, non-stop dialogue with P&O from 2/1911 onward, well past Seaview being ready for play, if he was involved with Seaview from the beginning, in the spring of 1913, why did it take him until November 1913 to ask for P&O's advice?"





I feel that is a pretty good question and I also feel to understand the logical answers again takes a real familiarity with the entire evolution of Hugh Wilson's correspondence (and Alan Wilson's and others in other regions) with Piper and Oakley over the years and what he (they) was really doing in the overall. If one has not read the entirety of those correspondences how would they ever understand what was going on with those men anyway?  

1. For someone to say that Hugh Wilson did not take a crap without turning to Piper and Oakley for guidance is pretty ridiculous and largely historically inaccurate anyway unless one recognizes that the subject between those men was pretty much always on the issues to do with and relating to grass for golf and the development and understanding and problem solving directly related to the subject of turf problem solving, development and excellence. Piper and Oakley had pretty much zero experience with golf course architecture and golf course construction (at least early on) and for that reason neither Hugh nor Alan Wilson ever relied on them for any advice or guidance that way (matter of fact when Piper proposed to Alan Wilson in the early 1920s that the USGA Green Committee (to shortly become the USGA Green Section) should write on golf architecture in their Bulletin, Alan Wilson advised Piper to back off on that and basically stick to their knitting that they were experts on which was golf course agronomy and not architecture . Matter of fact, pretty much the reverse was true over the years-----eg Piper and Oakley relied on the Wilson brothers and others such as Walter Harban, E.J. Marshall, C.B. Macdonald et al for guidance on understanding golf course architecture and golf course construction. Most of them were interested in it with P&O in the context of economic efficiencies anyway.

2. Why didn't Wilson contact P&O on Seaview when the project began if he was involved initially since he corresponded so much with them with Merion (and Pine Valley)? The logical answers to that are with Merion there was noone involved in the development of those courses other than Wilson (and his committee early on). There was noone at Merion for Wilson to answer to or deal with like Clarence Geist who owned Seaview. Essentially Wilson was in full control of the Merions and for that reason apparently and obviously Geist tended to make his own moves and decisions and obviously he did that with his hiring some local crews to deal with salt marsh reclamation which did not work out well and so Geist turned to Wilson to produce some advice on that for him. Wilson contacted P&O not for their advice on salt marsh reclamation (because they did not know anything about that) but to put him in touch with someone in the engineering section of a department of the US Government. If you bothered to read the following correspondences you would see this did not work out for Seaview or Wilson with the US Government.

3. By even 1913 P&O were probably depending upon Wilson, the Merion courses, Sunnybrook, and Pine Valley for their guidance and to serve as local agronomic experimentation stations as Wilson and his brother were depending upon P&O for the experimentation and identification with and of various grasses and diseases and problems. The gist of that evolution was that Wilson and P&O were working together to vet the purity and even the genus of grasses the commercial seed merchants were advertizing and marketing-----an issue they were all very suspect about with the commercial seed merchants which got even more direct and tense as the years went on. The likes of P&O and the Wilsons brothers were actually in the process of trying to develop an alternative supply source (other the commercial seed merhants) and one can clearly see that if and when one bothered to read those "agronomy letters" in their multi-year entirety. Matter of fact, in the late teens the Wilsons and others on the USGA along with P&O came remakably close to convincing President Woodrow Wilson and the US Government (US Dept of Agriculture) to take on the entire roll of developing and administering and supplying America in the realm of golf course agronomy! That did not happen and what-all transpired in the following years is also a fascinating evolution and study and story of the development of American golf course agronomy.

[Tom MacWood]

Mr. MacWood,

Are you suggesting that Wilson accepted a bribe from one of the seed companies?

Bribe? No, I said it is possible he was on retainer with one of the seed companies. It was a fairly common practice with Carters and Suttons, and I suspect some of the others. That is why architect XYZ always would recommend or use one or the other.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

I guess off the top of my head in answer to why Wilson didn't reach out to P&O prior to November 1913, there are any number of possibilities.

For instance, the William Evans article mentions that the course is built on sandy loam.   At that time, everyone from CB Macdonald to George Crump were under the (mistaken) impression that such a surface was ideal for building golf courses and growing grass.

In fact, the whole nature of Macdonald's letter to Merion after his initial site visit was to put them onto some folks like P&O who could help with inland, clay based soils, which were much different from what Macdonald was working with out at NGLA.

Also, it's tough to tell from the letters, particularly the second one, exactly what Geist was trying to accomplish and whether it was even related to the first course.   Reclaiming nearly 50 acres of marshland sure doesn't sound like the Bay course to me....and early accounts mentioned Geist's plans for a second course.

Now, the letter that is germane is trying to drain the five holes that were built in the lowlands because even today those holes stay relatively wet and my bet is they are below sea level.   So, it was probably only when they ran into some trouble, or realized that their original optimism about the site wasn't quite well-founded in all respects, that they reached out to P&O.

I mean, Wilson was already deluging P&O with constant letters just based on trying to get golf going inland on clay at Merion, and I'm sure he wanted to be sensitive to the fact that they were helping him greatly, free of charge, yet taking a lot of time to do so.   To then introduce another course, on another site, with much different types of soils had to be something Wilson was sensitive to introducing as a topic to these guys.   Your own quote of Wilson to P&O when the West course was first contemplated in December 1912 shows that he was a discerning fellow not wanting to exhaust that valuable resource;

"We are contemplating building eighteen more holes, possibly next year, and will still continue to bother you for a while".

Or, perhaps Wilson, being located in Philadelphia at the time when a trip to Atlantic City was a couple hour train ride both ways and already having a lot going on at Merion just did a site visit and layout design of the course for Geist, and then worked with Pickering and/or Robinson on construction, largely from a distance?   He certainly had faith in Pickering's agronomic abilities, the man being a grass expert himself, having built according to Alex Findlay literally hundreds of courses by this time.  

I just don't see any of this as some great mystery, or beyond very reasonable speculation.  

By 1913 CBM had come to realize the severe challenges of building on sand. I think it is fair to assume Wilson would have known this through is contact with CBM himself, and also with Piper, Oakley or Beale. Piper, Oakleyand Beale were all involved in helping CBM grow grass at the NGLA, and it was through CBM that Wilson got in contact with those three men.

Based on the frequency of letters I don't think Wilson was ever very concerned with diluging P&O, he was most concerned with getting expert advice. And he did eventually begin diluging P&O with letters about Seaview, so why would he be concerned about diluging before Nov. 1913, but not after Nov. 1913? That doesn't seem like a reasonalbe explanation to me.

I do see that the distance from Philadlephia to AC being an issue when P&O visited Philadelphia in October 1913, but it does not explain why he never discussed with the project with them, either in person or in letter. That makes no sense to me, especially when you consider the complicated nature of the project - a combination of sand and reclaimed land, aka muck.

Wilson had Pickering at Merion too, and that did not prevent him from seeking P&O's advice.  I have no idea what Robinson's credentials were.

I still think the most logical explanation are my two reasons.

What year or years was Wilson involved at Cobbs Creek, Philmont and Phoenixville? Could you give me some idea of what the Philmont and Phoenixville projects involved?

Didn't Wilson make a tour of the eastern golf courses? Do you know when that was and where he went?

[JESII]

"What strikes you, if anything, about these two letters?"


Tom,

What strikes me is the note at the bottom of the first saying "we are rebuilding our greens with sod from the old course" and in the second...

That in four months time, Oakley hadn't addressed the first letter and he was asking again for help on the matter...

[Niall C]

Mike:

Regarding the origination of the Merion upswept sand bunker faces on clay/loam INLAND sites in America and if in fact it was at Merion East, Niall Carlton from abroad has been in touch to say he thinks he has found some bunker construction drawings from 1909 from Reginald Beale (Carter Tested Seed's primary agronomist) that may be more detailed than Robert White's bunker drawings and description from 1914 in Golf Illustrated posted above by Brad Anderson.

If they match what Wilson et al were going to do at Merion that may be the best link to date about where Wilson may've gotten this idea that was reflected in that paragraph of his on bunkers posted above.

I do know that Reginald Beale was in New York with Macdonald in the late spring/early summer of 1911 and that Macdonald introduced him by letter to Wilson and that Beale did visit Merion in the early summer of 1911 as that is confirmed by Wilson to Piper and Oakley in some of those "agronomy letters." Wilson's only mention of Beale to Piper and Oakley, however, was that he (and Macdonald) felt Merion should use about twice as much fertilizer (manure) per green as P&O and Wilson thought was necessary. But it is not unusual that Wilson would not have mentioned a bunker type or style to P&O as Wilson typically did stick just to the point of what he was dealing with P&O for and that was agronomy and not golf course architecture.

I've taken a photocopy of the article in question and once I've mastered the art of scanning A3 I'll forward it onto whoever wants it. It comes from Golf Illustrated January 1909 British version (is that the same as the US version ?) and is indeed a more detailed article on bunkers which shows different types of construction both in plan and elevation. The second part of the article discusses the benefits and reasons for puting the bunkers in after the course is built.

Niall

[Mike Cirba]

Niall,

If you forward that article to me, I'll be happy to post it here.

Tom MacWood,

Re: your questions about Wilson's invovlement at other sites, etc., this is what I have from Joe Bausch's findings;

North Hills - Revised first nine and added new nine as part of creating essentially new 18 hole course in conjunction with Frank Meehan, Ab Smith, and Alan Corson, project starting 1914 and ending 1916.

Philmont - Working with Henry Strouse, did major revisions including bunkering plan and the creation of two new holes, the 8th and 12th (which unfortunately has lost all of it's diagonal center-line bunkering).   His work was evidently so extensive that he was credited in a 1917 article as a co-designer of the Phimont South course.

From that article;
"Many of the golf courses here were built in the old days when the architect was practically unknown. In recent years, many of these courses have been remodeled. The Philadelphia Country Club was changed and greatly improved by Walter Travis, one of the many amateurs who have been affected by the new ruling which bars as amateurs men who "construct" (my emphasis for a term of the time indicating and including "design) golf courses. A.W. Tillinghast, a Philadelphian, who intends to keep on with his golf course construction work, remodeled both the St. Davids and the Old York Road Country Clubs."

"Both of the Merion Cricket Club courses were built under the direction of Hugh Wilson who also laid out the Seaview course. Philmont is largely the work of Henry Strouse and Hugh Wilson. Aronimink has had many architects including George Klauner(sp)..."


To our chagrin, we've found nothing yet re: proving Wilson's involvement with Phoenixville, which is supposed to have happened around 1915.

Also, I have no information on his tour of eastern courses.   If you have something in that regard, I'd certainly be interested to see.

[Mike Cirba]

The following two excerpts from "Billy Bunker" in the January 1917 Philadelphia Inquirer may help;






As regards Hugh Wilson at Cobb's Creek, we know he was put on the committee to find an appropriate site for a golf course in Fairmount Park in 1913, we know they selected Cobb's Creek, we know that multiple plans on paper were done in 1914, and finally approved by the city and announced at the January 1915 GAP meeting.   Construction started April 1915, one account indicated that Hugh Wilson spent six months on the project, and Wilson was part of the committee who inspected the course before opening day on May 31, 1916.

As late as 1922 when Philly was looking to build additional public courses, Hugh Wilson was mentioned as certainly being on board for the design job, along with Smith, Meehan, and Park Engineer Alan Corson.

Hope this helps what you're trying to piece together.

[TEPaul]

Regarding post #153, I firmly believe if you took the time (which would be considerable) to read ALL the agronomy letters between Piper and Oakley and Hugh and Alan Wilson you would get a far different impression of what-all Hugh Wilson (and Alan) were doing both with and without Piper and Oakley through those years and particularly why----compared to your characterization (speculation) contained in post #153.

[Tom MacWood]

"What strikes you, if anything, about these two letters?"


Tom,

What strikes me is the note at the bottom of the first saying "we are rebuilding our greens with sod from the old course" and in the second...

That in four months time, Oakley hadn't addressed the first letter and he was asking again for help on the matter...

Oakley did respond and recommended a fellow in the Division of Irrigation, the problem was getting that expert to respond to Wilson.

[Tom MacWood]

Niall,

If you forward that article to me, I'll be happy to post it here.

Tom MacWood,

Re: your questions about Wilson's invovlement at other sites, etc., this is what I have from Joe Bausch's findings;

North Hills - Revised first nine and added new nine as part of creating essentially new 18 hole course in conjunction with Frank Meehan, Ab Smith, and Alan Corson, project starting 1914 and ending 1916.

Philmont - Working with Henry Strouse, did major revisions including bunkering plan and the creation of two new holes, the 8th and 12th (which unfortunately has lost all of it's diagonal center-line bunkering).   His work was evidently so extensive that he was credited in a 1917 article as a co-designer of the Phimont South course.

From that article;
"Many of the golf courses here were built in the old days when the architect was practically unknown. In recent years, many of these courses have been remodeled. The Philadelphia Country Club was changed and greatly improved by Walter Travis, one of the many amateurs who have been affected by the new ruling which bars as amateurs men who "construct" (my emphasis for a term of the time indicating and including "design) golf courses. A.W. Tillinghast, a Philadelphian, who intends to keep on with his golf course construction work, remodeled both the St. Davids and the Old York Road Country Clubs."

"Both of the Merion Cricket Club courses were built under the direction of Hugh Wilson who also laid out the Seaview course. Philmont is largely the work of Henry Strouse and Hugh Wilson. Aronimink has had many architects including George Klauner(sp)..."


To our chagrin, we've found nothing yet re: proving Wilson's involvement with Phoenixville, which is supposed to have happened around 1915.

Also, I have no information on his tour of eastern courses.   If you have something in that regard, I'd certainly be interested to see.

It would appear it is a work in progress trying to pin down what exactly Wilson did and when. With that said I don't think it would be going out the limb to say Wilson was in his developmental stage in the years from 1911 to 1914, which is why he relied so heavily on P&O.

[Tom MacWood]

It is interesting that Billy Bunker considered Geist a Philadelphian where as Verdant Greene considered him a Chicagoan. He was actually a Meat Slicer from LaPorte, IN, the same town my grandfather haled from, Gesit was two or three years older.

[Mike Cirba]

It would appear it is a work in progress trying to pin down what exactly Wilson did and when. With that said I don't think it would be going out the limb to say Wilson was in his developmental stage in the years from 1911 to 1914, which is why he relied so heavily on P&O.

Tom,

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with your characterization except to add that most, if not all, of American golf course architecture was in a developmental stage during those years prior to WWI, and Philadelphia was hardly an exception.   Guys like Tillinghast wrote for a number of years prior to the creation of Merion that Philadelphia needed a great championship golf course (with the belief that a great course developed great competitive golfers for matches against other cities) which was testing in all respects, which also was the genesis for the creations of Pine Valley and even Cobb's Creek.   Even after Merion opened in 1912 it was written that it would take a number of years to fully develop into a true championship course, which was true as it turned out.

As relates specifically to P&O, however, Wilson was something of a perfectionist, and rather obsessive, I think you'd agree.  (He would probably have actively participated on this DG with 2:00am postings had it existed back then!  ) Merion was not only trying to develop a great golf course, they were trying to develop great growing grass on an inland, clay-based golf course, which certainly hadn't been done well at all in America at that time.   Macdonald gave them an example of the early course at Baltusrol for leads, but even so, the best early courses on Long Island, Pinehurst, & even Garden City were built on mostly sandy soils.  

There was a lot to try and there was a lot to learn, for Hugh Wilson, and many others, if not all of the men developing golf courses in America at that time, both agronomically as well as architecturally.


p.s. that's very interesting about Geist's origins.   Perhaps his humble beginnings had to do with his seeming need to ostentatiously flaunt his wealth?

[Tom MacWood]

It appears construction started in June of 1913 (presumably the plans were drawn just prior) and it wasn't until October 1913, a full four months later after construction was completed that Hugh Wilson's name was mentioned in any newspaper we've been able to find as the person responsible for the layout.    Of course, no other news articles prior or post mentioned anyone BUT Hugh Wilson, but that shouldn't matter, right?  

How were you able to pin down the beginning of construction to June 1913, or is that an educated guess?

What is the date of this article? Did Evans write any articles about the project in 1913?

[Mike Cirba]

It appears construction started in June of 1913 (presumably the plans were drawn just prior) and it wasn't until October 1913, a full four months later after construction was completed that Hugh Wilson's name was mentioned in any newspaper we've been able to find as the person responsible for the layout.    Of course, no other news articles prior or post mentioned anyone BUT Hugh Wilson, but that shouldn't matter, right?  

How were you able to pin down the beginning of construction to June 1913, or is that an educated guess?

What is the date of this article? Did Evans write any articles about the project in 1913?

Tom,

The article states that "since June" workmen have been out there.  

I don't have the exact date in front of me at present, except it's from Ocotber of 1913.   Joe Bausch found that article from Evans and I'm not sure if Evans mentioned Seaview prior with any detail, but he could probably tell you.    The only problem is that he's uncovered so much awesome raw material in the past few years I'm not sure how he keeps track of it all!  

EDIT*** Tom...I have an article not digitized on this computer from October 18, 1914, titled "Seaview's Growth Has Been Magical", whose first sentence reads;

"Every bit as magical as the growth of Jack and the Bean Stalk is the Seaview Golf Club, which Clarence H. Geist, by the expenditure of a quarter of a million dollars , has caused to rise, within a year, over the stretches of a truck farm at Absecon, a few miles north of Atlantic City."

This is the article where last year I cut snippets for the hole descriptions on my comprehensive comparision of the work Wilson and Ross did there.   A later sentence in relation to hazards reads;

"Of course all the distances on the club card are provisional until experience has demonstrated the wisdom of hazard locations.   That wind will always be a great factor there was shown when the club flags were whipped ragged after bring run up a few days on the high pole that graces the lawn.."

[Joe Bausch]

It appears construction started in June of 1913 (presumably the plans were drawn just prior) and it wasn't until October 1913, a full four months later after construction was completed that Hugh Wilson's name was mentioned in any newspaper we've been able to find as the person responsible for the layout.    Of course, no other news articles prior or post mentioned anyone BUT Hugh Wilson, but that shouldn't matter, right?  

How were you able to pin down the beginning of construction to June 1913, or is that an educated guess?

What is the date of this article? Did Evans write any articles about the project in 1913?

Tom,

The article states that "since June" workmen have been out there.   

I don't have the exact date in front of me at present, except it's from Ocotber of 1913.   Joe Bausch found that article from Evans and I'm not sure if Evans mentioned Seaview prior with any detail, but he could probably tell you.    The only problem is that he's uncovered so much awesome raw material in the past few years I'm not sure how he keeps track of it all!   

October 12, 1913.

[Tom MacWood]

Joe
I was thrown off by the line that said the property was purchased last Spring, normally that would mean the previous year, but evidently thats not the case here. Should we take anything from the fact there is no mention of an architect?

[Tom MacWood]

It would appear it is a work in progress trying to pin down what exactly Wilson did and when. With that said I don't think it would be going out the limb to say Wilson was in his developmental stage in the years from 1911 to 1914, which is why he relied so heavily on P&O.

Tom,

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with your characterization except to add that most, if not all, of American golf course architecture was in a developmental stage during those years prior to WWI, and Philadelphia was hardly an exception.   Guys like Tillinghast wrote for a number of years prior to the creation of Merion that Philadelphia needed a great championship golf course (with the belief that a great course developed great competitive golfers for matches against other cities) which was testing in all respects, which also was the genesis for the creations of Pine Valley and even Cobb's Creek.   Even after Merion opened in 1912 it was written that it would take a number of years to fully develop into a true championship course, which was true as it turned out.

As relates specifically to P&O, however, Wilson was something of a perfectionist, and rather obsessive, I think you'd agree.  (He would probably have actively participated on this DG with 2:00am postings had it existed back then!  ) Merion was not only trying to develop a great golf course, they were trying to develop great growing grass on an inland, clay-based golf course, which certainly hadn't been done well at all in America at that time.   Macdonald gave them an example of the early course at Baltusrol for leads, but even so, the best early courses on Long Island, Pinehurst, & even Garden City were built on mostly sandy soils.  

There was a lot to try and there was a lot to learn, for Hugh Wilson, and many others, if not all of the men developing golf courses in America at that time, both agronomically as well as architecturally.


p.s. that's very interesting about Geist's origins.   Perhaps his humble beginnings had to do with his seeming need to ostentatiously flaunt his wealth?

In 1913 there were men in America who had several years of experience, with numerous projects under their belt, who had been studying golf architecture for a number of years. I would say they were beyond the developmental stage, relative to Wilson anyway. I'm thinking of Macdonald (and Whigham), Travis, Barker, Emmet, Ross, Watson, Findlay, Strong, JD and Seymore Dunn, off the top of my head. Colt was also making his visits to America, and he may have had more experience than all of the them.

It would appear money was no object for Geist. He brought Wilfred Reid and his family over at great expense. Baltusrol had tried to lure him just a year or two earlier to no avail. Geist brough a world class swimmer from England to be his swimming instructor at Seaview, and another well respected teaching pro from Scotland a year or two after Reid.

[JESII]

"What strikes you, if anything, about these two letters?"


Tom,

What strikes me is the note at the bottom of the first saying "we are rebuilding our greens with sod from the old course" and in the second...

That in four months time, Oakley hadn't addressed the first letter and he was asking again for help on the matter...

Oakley did respond and recommended a fellow in the Division of Irrigation, the problem was getting that expert to respond to Wilson.

In the interest of answering your question...when did Oakley respond? It certainly doesn't appear he had by March 1914 - 4 months after the first letter you posted in which Wilson asks the exact same thing...

[Tom MacWood]

He responded within a few days. When I get a chance I'll post the letter.

[Mike Cirba]

Joe
I was thrown off by the line that said the property was purchased last Spring, normally that would mean the previous year, but evidently thats not the case here. Should we take anything from the fact there is no mention of an architect?

Tom,

That October 1913 article does mention an architect...you only copied the top half of the image.   Here's the bottom half again;




In relation to your other point about men with more architectural experience than Hugh Wilson in spring 1913, while that's true there were very, very few courses in America at that time generally agreed to be excellent.    It seems everyone always brought up the usual suspects...Leeds at Myopia, Travis's enhancements at Garden City, and Macdonald at NGLA.  

You did have Ross at Pinehurst developing his #2 course (with Travis early on?) and many other courses being built by the men you mentioned around that time, all of various quality (most of which were initially advertised as "being the equal to any course", etc., etc.) or not, but very few actually achieving generally acknowledged "greatness", even within their own time.  

Perhaps Geist was so impressed with what Wilson did at Merion East that he just had faith in him and his approach to architectural and agronomic problems?    Certainly by all accounts Wilson was a very quick study and he was able to accomplish something that had been outside the grasp of others in the Philadelphia area up until that point.   We know that Geist and Wilson were not only aquaintances, as shown in their work together in the effort for a public course in Philly in early 1913, but in the P&O letter Wilson also calls Geist his "friend".  

Some months back, you asked the same questions about "why Hugh Wilson" in relation to Merion, where rich, influential men like Robert Lesley or H.G. Lloyd or Rodman Griscom could have selected anyone they wanted and certainly those with more "experience" than Hugh Wilson.

You could ask the same questions about why J. Franklin Meehan used him at North Hills, or Ellis Gimbel at Philmont.

But more and more, I think the answer is very clear.   These men all knew him personally and clearly they saw something in him that gave them the confidence that he was the right person for the job.  

Whether that makes sense to us when drawn and quartered against a historical comparative perspective of armchair quarterbacking a century later and you or I or anyone else finding it just incredulous ultimately really doesn't negate the fact that these men did exactly that, and I'm sure they had their good reasons.


Jim Sullivan,

I believe Wilson was asking P&O two separate things in those letters.   I believe the first question was in relation to draining some of the holes along the bay and the second was in relation to a reclamation project that I believe was related to Geist's vision for a second course.

[JESII]

Mike,

My reading comprehension score on the SAT's was about equal to a difficult course slope rating so I'll defer but ask you to re-read those letters...if he's asking two different things I'll be damned...although if Tom produces a letter from Oakley with an introduction you may well be right.

I don't know.

Those two letters sure look like the same question to me, only written by someone not wanting to embarass the recipient for not responding to the first one...

[Joe Bausch]

Do I think somebody like Colt, which we have a report many years later that he visited Seaview while in this area for PV in May 1913, might have played a role in Seaview?  Yes.  But it is just a reasonable guess.  I hope to someday be able to sort all this out fully.  I'm confident the answers are out there, but they just haven't been unearthed yet.

[Mike Cirba]

Do I think somebody like Colt, which we have a report many years later that he visited Seaview while in this area for PV in May 1913, might have played a role in Seaview?  Yes.  But it is just a reasonable guess.  I hope to someday be able to sort all this out fully.  I'm confident the answers are out there, but they just haven't been unearthed yet.

We know that Colt came over in May 1913 and that he visited Merion and Seaview (almost certainly staying with Hugh Wilson) and the story goes that George Crump also persuaded him to come by PV, where he (excitedly) ended up staying for the better part of a week after seeing the potential there.

There is also no doubt in my mind that Wilson would listened intently and wholeheartedly to Colt's advice, much as he did with Macdonald at Merion.   He clearly had great respect for both men.

[TEPaul]

"With that said I don't think it would be going out the limb to say Wilson was in his developmental stage in the years from 1911 to 1914, which is why he relied so heavily on P&O."

“Don't completely discount the second possibility, it was not uncommon for these men (professional and amateur) to receive a retainer under the table from these seed/construction companies.”

“Bribe? No, I said it is possible he was on retainer with one of the seed companies. It was a fairly common practice with Carters and Suttons, and I suspect some of the others. That is why architect XYZ always would recommend or use one or the other.”

“"Wilson and Oakley (and Piper) wrote over 150 letters between 1911 and November 1913. Wilson did not take a crap during this period without writing to Oakley to ask for guidance."




All the foregoing remarks if they are insinuations or implications that particularly Hugh Wilson constantly turned to Piper and Oakley (P&O) for guidance on golf course architecture are very misleading at best.

For the record, and realizing not many on here are all that familiar with Piper and Oakley (P&O) and seeing as at least one contributor on here keeps saying Hugh Wilson relied so heavily on them with remarks like Wilson did not take a crap without turning to Piper and Oakley for guidance (apparently implying Wilson relied on their constant guidance on golf course architecture), the following history and evolution of the specifics of their years long relationships apparently needs to be better known and better explained.

Prof. C.V. Piper and R.A Oakley were highly respected botanists for the United States Department of Agriculture in Washington D.C. They were employed by the US Dept. of Agriculture for research, development and application of primarily forage crops in the US. Neither of them had any previous understanding or expertise in golf course architecture.

It appears C.B. Macdonald may've been the first involved in golf to turn to them comprehensively for research, development and application to do with grass to be used for turf on golf courses. It does not appear either Piper or Oakley had ever before been involved in specific research to do with grass for golf. This began during the early development of NGLA towards the end of the first decade of the 20th century. Macdonald introduced MCC and Wilson to Piper and Oakley in 1910. Wilson's first letter to P&O was written on Feb. 1, 1911 as Wilson and his member committee began to route, design Merion East and began to seek advice in preparing its soil for golf course grass as well as to begin researching various types and strains of grass for golf. Hugh Wilson's last letter to P&O was on Jan. 8, 1925, about three weeks before his death at 45 years of age (see below), almost fourteen years later. The Hugh Wilson file of the so-called "agronomy letters" (to and from H.I.W and P&O and including other inclusions) number 1,513 correspondences over that timespan.

Alan Wilson began corresponding with P&O on June 25, 1917 and ended in 1931 (near Alan's death).

During those years both Hugh and Alan Wilson were completely central (with a number of other counteparts like them in other cities such as Walter Harban in D.C. and E.J Marshall in Ohio) to the creation of the first USGA Green Committee and then the USGA's Green Section (created in 1925-26 by then USGA president W.C. Fownes (Oakmont) that was an evolution of the USGA Green Committee). Together they created the monthly Bulletin which was intended to help and educate American golf in the understanding of primarily golf agronomy and maintenance but also related topics such as golf course construction and architecture (from various contributions from experts in those fields).

C.V. Piper became the first chairman of the USGA's Green Committee and then Green Section (Alan Wilson was the USGA board chairman of the USGA Green Committee). R.A. Oakley served as the vice chairman and he became the chairman when Piper died.

I had long thought that Piper and Oakley left the US Dept of Agriculture to work for the USGA and serve as the chairmen of its Green Section but in fact they never left the US Dept of Agriculture and it appears the USGA simply paid the US Dept of Agriculture for their services and agronomy research and development during their tenures.

It is extremely clear to see that the primary concern of the Wilson brothers during all their years of work with Piper and Oakley (and others) was excessive financial and economic waste, potential and otherwise, in golf due to the on-going making of the same mistakes on golf projects around the country as well as the waste in time and money of the commercial seed merchants who they felt misadvertized and mispackaged their products thereby potentially costing American golf a good deal of money and time.

In the late teens the Wilson brothers and some of their counterparts within and without the USGA almost convinced President Woodrow Wilson and the US Government (the US Dept of Agriculture) to take over and administer the entire American golf agronomy industry. Failing that, they tried to convince some of the biggest financiers in America to create a $1,000,000 fund to yield enough to pay for American agronomic research and development and supply industry.

Essentially this interesting coterie of men who seemed diametrically opposed to the commercialization of this field created what became modern American bent grass. Those bent grasses were generally analyzed, purified, developed and experimented with at the US Dept of Agriculture’s experimental turf station in Arlington Virginia.

All these men seemed imbued with an incredibly strong ethos of non-commercialism in this area of the golf industry in America. Of them all that ethos seemed strongest in Hugh and particularly his brother Alan Wilson.

It is extremely misleading for anyone to assume that in all those years either Hugh Wilson or any of the others ever turned to Piper and Oakley for advice and guidance on golf course architecture as none of them felt Piper and Oakley were experts in that specific field. Obviously over the years all their efforts with golf agronomy created various nexuses with golf maintenance and construction and even architecture but the fact is Piper and Oakley had never been trained in golf course architecture and that was not a specific field they ever got into. They were scientific men and trained botanists who were central to the development of grass for the American golf course agronomic industry.

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