[TEPaul]

"If Carters was diluting their product by mixing Red Top in their bentgrass supplies, they wouldn't have done so on their showcase properties."


Brad:

Like most everything else in this over-all subject, the idea (reality?) that some to most of those seed-merchants back then were mixing various types of seeds in their packaged products probably has an interesting story on both sides of the coin.

There is no question if one reads through the so-called "agronomy letters" that that sort of mixing of seeds in those seed merchants bags drove the likes of Piper and Oakley and the Wilson brothers and others crazy. They felt doing things like that was truly unethical business practices and purposefully misadvertising.

On the other hand, I have also heard that at least early on some of those seed merchants actually did that on purpose and for what they felt was a good reason-----if there was a variety of types of seeds in those bags that under the Darwinian theory of natural selection something was probably bound to grow and survive.

But there may be a third and perhaps more logical possibility. Basically all those big seed merchants had to buy their product wherever they could find it and that process could defnitely be very hit-and-miss. In other words sometimes even they could not tell what type of grass they were buying themselves or even where it came from. On that pretty much everyone other than the original collector of seed had to depend upon each others word and honesty and expertise I guess.

This is precisely why a guy like Wilson basically sent everything he bought from any seed merchant or source down to Piper and Oakley to identify what exactly it was. And after that the likes of Piper and Oakley (Carrier, Walton, Westgate et al) at the US Dept of Agriculture tried to scientifically analyze who well it might work and endure with golf use.

The other thing that seemed to upset them was if those bags had a lot of residual matter in them they generally described as "inert" because after-all the end users were buying those seed bags on straight weight!

[Tom MacWood]

These seed merchants played a much greater role in the development of American golf architecture than what is generally known. I have gathered a lot of info on the subject and I have some good leads on what I hope will be a lot more info in the near future, which I will share once I get a handle on all the particulars. There is a lot more to the story than meets the eye. At this point I will just say I've found some interesting info on Merion and Seaview, and I feel pretty certain one of them was built by Carters, I'm not sure about the other. I hope to have a more definitive answer in the future.  

[TEPaul]

"These seed merchants played a much greater role in the development of American golf architecture than what is generally known. I have gathered a lot of info on the subject and I have some good leads on what I hope will be a lot more info in the near future, which I will share once I get a handle on all the particulars. There is a lot more to the story than meets the eye. At this point I will just say I've found some interesting info on Merion and Seaview, and I feel pretty certain one of them was built by Carters, I'm not sure about the other. I hope to have a more definitive answer in the future."




If you really do have some good and indicative new info on this subject it would be just wonderful and highly anticipated and of course very likely highly educational into the understanding of the ebbs and flows of the evolution of what-all was going on back then with agronomy, construction and perhaps even architecture.

For starters, it would be good and helpful to know if a company like Carter's back then said they could provide "construction advice" on golf course architecture if that actually entailed the hiring of one of their architect representatives (like a Harry Colt) or if it got more into the area of providing construction crews or just a construction foreman (like William Gordon had apparently been early on for Carter's).

I guess the nub of this is whether (or not) what a Carter's said they were providing in the area of architectural construction was sort of like a "general contractor" who would then have to go out and find and hire the crews of actual laborers and manual contractors or constructors.

With Merion, we do know that they hired a company in early 1911 known as Johnson & Co to do general clearing, grading, and some drainage related work.  So who were they? Did they have something to do with a company like Carter's or were Johnson & Co a total contractor who were ready to work under the construction foremanship of a Frederick Pickering (who Wilson found) or later say a Wlliam Flynn and somewhat later a Joe Valentine?

There is nothing in the administrative MCC records that mentions having anything to do with Carter's. Johnson & Co. was the only one mentioned in that vein and that was very early. It's hard to say how long they lasted with the Merion courses or even what they actually did at any particular time.

[TEPaul]

There is only a single item that I can see from the MCC records (Agronomy Letters) that relates to Reginald Beale (Carter's) vis-a-vis Merion and it is a series of letters in June 1911 between Macdonald and Wilson and then Wilson and Piper and Oakley in which the entire subject is Beale's visit to Merion and the issue of how much lime and manure to apply to Merion per acre.

Macdonald and Beale recommended 30 tons per acre and both Piper and Oakley and Wilson agreed that that was far too much and economically unnecessary and that they should go with the 10-12 tons per acre with manure and/or liming (P&O's initial recommendation before Beale and Macdonald weighed in with their recommendation for Merion).

Perhaps from this one situation (disagreement?) in 1911 it sort of seems like Beale was on one side of the spectrum and Piper and Oakley, the Wilsons et al and eventually the entire thrust of the USGA's Green Section were on the opposite philosophical camp and end of the spectrum.

The underlying issue (spectrum) over the years seems to be the degree of acidity or the degree of alkalinity (somewhat dependent on which type of grass strains were being used) was proper and/or ideal for turf health and endurance.

[Niall C]

Tom P

In that letter in the Times from Beale that Tommy Mac posted was the position not the other way round ? Beale suggesting less lime and P&O more, or have I got that wrong ?

Niall

[TEPaul]

"and I feel pretty certain one of them was built by Carters,"


As of now, and assuming you have some leads on Carter's constructing say Seaview, does it appear to you that it was Carter's who hired those 'local people' Wilson mentioned in his Nov. 21, 1913 letter to Oakley who made a real mess of things with some kind of salt marsh work? I think Wilson mentioned in that letter that Geist hired those "local people" but perhaps he meant that Geist hired Carter's who hired those local people who made a mess of it.  

But what we do know from those letters is that Geist turned to Wilson for advice and to find somebody to do it right, and for that Wilson turned to P&O to recommend some other government agency who might help Geist out if he paid for it.

It is unclear what eventually happened on that particular situation of salt marsh reclamation issues at Seaview. Maybe "The Donald" was the one who came in and fixed it with his bunkering or whatever later on.  

Wasn't Tillie sniffing around Seaview too at some point? Am I crazy or doesn't the club think Tillie did SOMETHING down there at some point?

This seems to be getting pretty confusing so perhaps we should all just give up on it and conclude that it was really M&W who worked the whole thing out somehow and at some point and for that should be considered "the driving force" behind Seaview too.

[TEPaul]

"Beale suggesting less lime and P&O more, or have I got that wrong ?"


Niall:

As I said earlier I'm a total dunce in that particular area but I just had a chat with Bradley Anderson about it and it appears to me he thinks, at the moment anyway, it may've been Beale more on the alkaline side (liming=sweeter soil) and P&O more on the acidic side of things (as P&O, the Wilsons, the USGA Green Section were pretty much the developers of some strains of American bent grass and as bent grass apparently traditionally and naturally likes acidiity I guess that would make sense). But I may be wrong about that and misunderstood him somehow. I would like to see Kyle Harris weigh in on that question too because like Brad, that's what he is really good at understanding.

But one thing seems pretty certain and that is whatever end of the spectrum Beale and P&O were on they were at opposite ends. I think Beale makes that pretty clear in that article and since he mentioned 1928 we sure do know their differences and different thinking in that vein spanned a lot of time.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Like TP, I'll look forward to seeing what you're able to uncover about the nature of Colt's visit in relation to Seaview & Merion.

Joe B. and I might be in AC this weekend seeing what we can dig up on the Colt visit as well.   Perhaps our respective research will interestingly intersect, converge, or collide, but I do appreciate our mutual determination to actually discuss these things here of late.

Thanks.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

Like TP, I'll look forward to seeing what you're able to uncover about the nature of Colt's visit in relation to Seaview & Merion.

Joe B. and I might be in AC this weekend seeing what we can dig up on the Colt visit as well.   Perhaps our respective research will interestingly intersect, converge, or collide, but I do appreciate our mutual determination to actually discuss these things here of late.

Thanks.

Does anyone have a copy of Whitten's article on Seaview? I believe he was the one who found the article about Colt visiting Seaview & Merion, and if I'm not mistaken it was a Atlantic City newspaper.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I don't...it used to be online but that got pulled some time back.   

That is certainly a place to start, and I'm curious as I'm sure you are about the date of that original article and what it mentioned about Wilson at that time.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I found that I copied a snippet from Whitten's article way back when...here it is;

It took me 25 years of searching, but I recently stumbled upon a 1918 Atlantic City newspaper article on microfilm. It was a rambling review of the history of Seaview, especially its massive clubhouse (now expanded into a hotel.) The article did mention the course: "Hugh Wilson laid out course and Ross did the trapping," a subhead read.

"Hugh I. Wilson, who also laid out the two Merion courses (bold mine), is responsible for the Seaview course," it said in the text. "Five or six years ago, Clarence H. Geist, then president of the Whitemarsh Valley County Club (outside Philadelphia), decided that there was no earthly reason why Philadelphians and other golfers should go south in the winter to get their golf. He felt that there were scores of men of big affairs who ... could run down to the shore and play over the weekend ..." – 1918 Atlantic city newspaper article as recounted by Ron Whitten.

Needless to say, Joe and I (and I'm sure you, as well) are hoping to find something from the first part of 1913.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I also found this in the back pages of the site.   It seems to say that Hugh Wilson directly assigned Fred Pickering to do construction of the Seaview course, and we all know the course was constructed and grassed between 6/1913 and 11/1913, so that's a bit difficult to reconcile with the newspaper article that mentions Pickering was at Seaview in 1916.   These guys were pretty transient, so who knows?   Perhaps Geist brought him back after Connellan left?

Here is what was written by Fred Kortebein, Wilson's associate who corresponded for Wilson when he was laid up, on Feb 8, 1924 to CV Piper:

Dear Sir:

Your letter of the seventh instant to Mr. Wilson enclosing a copy of letter from Assistant Collector of Customs Perry at Boston with respect to one F.G. Pickering, has likewise been opened by me, and in reply beg to advise as follows.

Mr. Pickering was employed to look after the practical work in the actual construction of the East Course at Merion, and it is Mr. Wilson's feeling that in this particular class of work he is a very practical man.  He, however, had one fault at that time, which was the excessive use of liquor, and he was likewise employed in the actual construction of the West course, when conditions became more acute with him, and he practically "blew up".  Flynn worked under him and, when he was let go from Merion, Flynn succeeded him.  Mr. Wilson subsequently tried him out in the actual construction work at Seaview, and his characteristics during his employment there were even more pronounced than at Merion.

Yours very truly,
Fred Kortebein

[TEPaul]

"                                              New York, June 13, 1911


Dear Mr. Wilson:
                                

                           I am dictating this by telephone.

                           I have just seen Beale and had luncheon with him and his friend.

                           He states that you were only putting on twelve tons of manure
                           to the acre, and he seems to think that with the impoverished
                           state of your soil, you are far short of the amount required.
                           He says it seems to him thirty tons would be nearer the mark........

                           ......I give you this for what it is worth.




                                           (signed)   Charles B. Macdonald                                  "




I wonder who Beale's friend C.B was referring to was?  I also wonder how well Macdonald knew Colt at that time (1911). It has just occured to me that the more likely candidate to have arranged for Wilson to meet Colt during his 1912 trip abroad seems to be George Crump since he had been over there in the heathlands at the end of 1910.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Beale's mistress perhaps, or have I been reading the news too much lately?  

Interesting letter from Macdonald.   One doesn't want to read too much into these things but "for what it's worth" doesn't sound much like a proud papa to me.  

All,

Joe Bausch and I are heading down to the Atlantic County Historical Society tomorrow and hope to find some materials related to the origins of Seaview, particularly the land purchase and subsequent timeline as relates to 1913, the first half of the year specifically.

In the meantime, I came across this interesting article that goes into a bit more detail as to the architecture of the greens.

I also wonder who "one of the best golf architects" refers to who laid out the golf course?  




Tough to see without looking closely, but today what was originally the 9th hole's green still has two distinct shelves; a high one to the left and lower to the right;

[TEPaul]

"Interesting letter from Macdonald.   One doesn't want to read too much into these things but "for what it's worth" doesn't sound much like a proud papa to me."


As you might recall, the letter Macdonald wrote to MCC (addressed to Lloyd) following his visit to Ardmore in June 1910 is about half on soil and potential agronomic conditions of the future site of Merion East at Ardmore. Therefore that letter from Macdonald to Wilson just dealing with soil conditions posted above (only partially transcribed) a year later is understandable.

However, Beale's recommendation (and Macdonald's apparent agreement) is not what Wilson did. He followed the previous recommendation on quantity of Piper and Oakley that was to use a little over one third the amount of Beale's (and Macdonald's) recommendation. Oakley's response to Macdonald's letter about Beale's recommendatin was that Beale might be an expert in Great Britain on agronomy but he might not know as much as he might think he did about various conditions in this country.

This may be the first example of a dispute, basically on the fundamentals of the necessary degree of soil alkalinity vs acidity, that lasted for many years between Beale and Piper and Oakley (and people like the Wilson's and others) and the USGA's Green Section (NB: the article from Beale after 1928 that is posted on Reply #17 on the thread "Beale and bunkers in 1909).

[JESII]

Tom,

If that letter is partially transcribed, what is the rest?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
If that letter is partially transcribed, what is the rest?"


Sully;

The rest of the letter from Macdonald reminds Wilson that he and Whigam routed and designed Merion East in a few hours in June 1910 and that he is adamant that he did not steal any ideas from HH Barker when MCC showed him that paper sketch in 1910. He also reminds Wilson that he and his committee are a bunch of novices and no matter how many iterations they did for the East course and no matter if the plan he and Whigam said they would endorse was done by Wilson and his committee that he still felt he should be considered the architect of Merion East or at least the "driving force" behind Merion East and that he was going to speak to his son-in-law to reconfirm that he would be sure to remind everyone of that in Whigam's eulogy to him if he happened to predecease H.J. Whigam.

(Why did I partially transcribe that letter and leave out the foregoing part? Because I am "The Alterer of Historic Merion and MCC Documents," don't you know? One can read all about that too on Golfclubatlas.com. Within the last month I was basically referred to on here as "TE "the whiteout guy" Paul." Great handle, don't you think? 


On a more serious note, the rest of the letter just says that Beale felt Wilson had the land and good possibilities at Ardmore but that he did not think they were using enough manure to create good humus to enrich the soil enough to bring the course along rapidly. And Macdonald recommended that Wilson get himself a first class agriculturalist. Within the month Wilson and MCC had hired such a man and it appears it may've been Frederick Pickering who was or became William Flynn's brother-in-law.

As you may recall from another article posted on here Pickering was highly praised for his talents in golf construction by Alex Findlay. Pickering was apparently a very talented guy whose results may've been even better had he not so constantly brought that other guy by the name of John Barleycorn with him onto his sites and projects (Merion East and West and Seaview).

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

Good luck on your research trip to the Historical Society of Atlantic City with Joe Bausch tomorrow.

I note with interest that article you posted above from a Chicago newspaper reports that the weather is uniformly balmy in Atlantic City at this time of the year (I guess to Chicagoans that kind of thing is relative, huh?).

I also note the irony in the fact that Ron Whitten said he searched for 25 years on Seaview before finding an article attributing the design of the course to Hugh Wilson. At this point how many different articles do you think have been found by Joe or you or others mentioning Wilson as Seaview's architect?

I wish I had thought more about this over 3-5 years ago as I could have spoken to Geist's grandson, Geist Ely, about this.

Some years ago Geist Ely told me he went to play at Overbrook which was like a deja vu to him as what is now Overbrook GC belonged to his mother and father and he grew up in what is now its clubhouse (Geist Ely's mother was Clarence Geist's daughter and Clarence Geist basically gave her what is today Overbrook golf club as a wedding present apparently because he (Clarence Geist) lived in that mammoth place across the street that is today Notre Dame School for Girls). Ely said he went up to the top of the house to his old bedroom when he was a small child and fished behind some vent and found a toy he had stored there decades before.

If I were you I'd ask that Historical Society in Atlantic City if they know if Clarence Geist's personal papers are reposited anywhere around here or somewhere. It would not surprise me considered that man's business stature----eg he was reputed to have been the largest owner of utility stock and utility companies in America.

Good Luck.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

We'll definitely ask about Geist's papers...thanks for the idea.

However, the papers I'd most like to locate would be Robert Lesley's or HG Lloyd's.

Has anyone ever tried to track down anything from their estates?  Rodman Griscom also comes to mind as a possible wealth of early information.

[TEPaul]

I'm pretty much onto the oldest or most knowledgeable member of the Lloyd famiily to Horatio Gates Lloyd. Interestingly Horatio Gates Lloyd took a trip or two to DC with Wilson to visit Piper and Oakley and the US Dept of Agriculture's plots as well as some other agronmic research. It was for his Allgates estate though. His wife was the president of the Garden Club of America.

I think I know enough about the Griscoms both personally and from other research. I don't thnk there is much of interest there with architecture although the Griscoms were quite the family for various other reasons.

But what might be most interesting is I think I'm about to undercover a pretty old family member who might put me onto some interesting info on Devereux Emmet.

With Geist though, even though my old buddy Geist Ely died in 2007 I think he has some children around here who might be a lead. It's worth a phone call at least. It might be worthwhile stopping in at that Notre Dame School for Girls accross from Overbrook GC to see if they know anything as Clararence Geist built that mammoth estate.

I don't know what to say about Lesley even though I will be going to GCGC one of these days to do a basic inventory research on The Lesley Cup material so I can be more sure whatever turns up is not redundant to what they have.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

What about Robert Lesley?   He was a U of Penn grad, an engineer at that, was head of GAP through all of the most interesting early evolutionary years, was the President of Merion Golf Assn. during the creation of the East and West courses, and drove the creation of Cobb's Creek and remained a higlly influential figure for many years following.  

I can only imagine that somewhere in a dusty steamer trunk there might be a wealth of GCA treasure.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

Yes, I've known all about Robert Lesley's essential bio for years but I've never seen anything on him much to do with golf course architecture.

We're always looking for those proverbial old dusty steamer trunks with a wealth of old GCA material in it, aren't we?  

I would surely like to know where those sketches and drawing that Wilson did abroad in 1912 are that Richard Francis mentioned in his article for the US Open magazine in 1950, and I sure would love to see one of those survey contour maps Wilson and committee and logically Richard Francis used to design Merion East. I still have some hope it may turn up somewhere in the National Archives.

If we could find one of those things with its PRE-construction contour lines on it can you imagine what-all that could and would tell us about the architecture of that golf course? I bet it even had the old Dallas bank-barn on it that apparently sat on top of what is now the 3rd green.

[Joe Bausch]

So Mike and I go to the Atlantic Heritage Center today in Atlantic City, NJ, and a darn blizzard breaks out.  I'm not kidding.  We'll report back in due time on some of our findings.

[Mike Cirba]

Year round golf at Seaview, shhhhurrrrrr, it is...

Clarence Geist was a flipping idiot!

[Mike Cirba]

I'm going to try to spend the next few posts laying out the chronology of events at Seaview from inception to opening as they were reported at that time.

As you might imagine, Joe Bausch and I spent quite a good deal of time rifling through old newspapers as snow fell heavily outside, trying to solve what questions remain about Seaview.

On February 22nd, 1913, the following articles appeared in the Atlantic City papers.   Note that at this juncture, the exact land had not yet been secured.

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