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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2009, 09:06:54 PM »
 8) ;D 8)

Alan no worries mate ...good work on the photos ...

Having looked out the pro shop window for days on  end  (lol complaining about being at Pine Valley  )  the bunker threw me off at first as it does look too pronounced  but the size and contour of the green sure looks like    #4r ....I think Sully is right ...he  just beat me to the punch .....could

Back to the tee ground on #6  ....If the tee shot was more uphill.....just love it  
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 09:21:36 PM by archie_struthers »
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Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2009, 09:26:07 PM »
Have they ever cleared trees on the property or considered doing so?

Amazing how open the course looks in Michael's fantastic photos - those are amazing.
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Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2009, 09:55:54 PM »
Michael Duggar's picture of #10 is amazing with the short grass between the DA left bunker and green.
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Proud member of a Doak 3.

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2009, 10:02:11 PM »
These are a couple of old ones I found in my files while looking for a picture of 11. I have to agree with Archie and Jim that it is 4. After thinking back I do remember some real large funky contours in the direction of Dickensons House (and where they are in the picture), almost like they had excess material they needed to get rid of during construction so they just mounded it up in the woods.

this ones from 1938



and this is from 1940

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Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Rick Sides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2009, 11:10:00 PM »
 Alan,
 Great Pictures. Do you have any others in the file?
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Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2009, 12:10:24 AM »
Is there an inland course in the world with such striking hazards?

It is incredible how the sand, trees, grass, water, presents an awe inspiring dynamic in these black and white photos.
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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2009, 12:15:35 AM »
Regarding trees, it's interesting how Augusta gets criticized while Pine Valley gets a pass.

Fantastic photographs.  Thanks to all.

MIke
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2009, 07:50:11 AM »
Quote from: Rick Sides on December 28, 2009, 11:10:00 PM
Alan,
 Great Pictures. Do you have any others in the file?

Unfortunately that's it, as I lost a bunch a few years back when my old computer crashed and I wasn't backed up..... ::)
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Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Phil_the_Author

Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2009, 08:21:58 AM »
Alan Fitzgerald mentioned "Notice the lady on the tee!" of the 5th hole. She is the same lady, & so is the gentleman, who can be seen in Michael Dugger's post #2 photo #3.

Her name is Lillian Tillinghast and she is the wife of her playing partner who is also in both photos, A.W. Tillinghast. These are the ONLY two known photographs of Lillian with a golf club in her hands!

Recently, a copy of the photograph that Michael included in his first reply was discovered by Andy Mutch in the Pine Valley archives.



As stunning as this photo is, it is what Tilly himself wrote on the back of it that surprised all:


« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 08:32:40 AM by Philip Young »
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Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2009, 08:26:51 AM »
The trees at PV really frame the landing areas and holes. I think they are generally good hazards and enhance the venue. I could lose or trim the one on #7, which affects the back tees and trim some on #8, and possibly #12 ... but would hate to see the place denuded.
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"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2009, 08:44:57 AM »
Has anyone played the short course and have photos they can post??
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Cave Nil Vino

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2009, 09:13:16 AM »
Wonderful pictures..what a remarkable difference on the majority of the views.
Interesting to share thoughts on what looks better and what does the treehouse think has been spoiled bu the increased growth?
To me the tee shot on number 4 for instance is more intimidating now than it was before growth.
Number five look more intimidating with that green just standing there as a skyline green...hell nothing to aim at!

The view of 18 was probably the most differnet to me..but what great photos...thanks for sharing.

My guess is that the general view will be in support of the "more tree removal" brigade...comments?
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Ian Andrew

Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2009, 09:25:04 AM »
I have - it's really well done.

There was no point taking photos when 8 of the 10 are the same "shots" as the originals.
The work is remarkably accurate to the original settings.
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Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2009, 09:37:23 AM »
I agree the short course is remakable..it resembles the equivalent shots on the 'big' course perfectly.
Could well be Fazio's best work ;)
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Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2009, 09:42:42 AM »
Were the trees not planted in part as a way to stabilize the surrounding soil? I seem to remember reading that here on a past thread. What would the  plan be to perform that function after the trees are removed?

I also remember a thread not too long ago that showed pictures of bunkering that was now surrounded by trees, and discussion regarding the playing corridors being restored to that point. It seems like it would be hard for anyone to argue against removing enough tree growth for that purpose.
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"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2009, 10:30:38 AM »
Kirk..
this is gca people can argue with anything ;D
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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2009, 10:37:14 AM »
Quote from: Michael_Hendren on December 29, 2009, 12:15:35 AM
Regarding trees, it's interesting how Augusta gets criticized while Pine Valley gets a pass.

Fantastic photographs.  Thanks to all.

MIke

Michael,

I was thinking along the same lines here...not sure why Pine Valley gets a free pass because it just might be the best course that would benefit hugely from a massive tree reduction program.
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2009, 10:42:19 AM »
Pine Valley gets killed for its trees every time there is a thread on it...but Augusta gets killed more because they host the Masters and therefore has more written about it and is more visible...
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Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2009, 11:22:15 AM »
Quote from: Dan Boerger on December 29, 2009, 08:26:51 AM
The trees at PV really frame the landing areas and holes. I think they are generally good hazards and enhance the venue. I could lose or trim the one on #7, which affects the back tees and trim some on #8, and possibly #12 ... but would hate to see the place denuded.

The trees to the left on #11 make for a very difficult tee shot for a left to right player like me. The tee shot from the back tee on #9 was also difficult for this reason. I hit trees less than 100 yards off the tee on both holes with slightly offline tee shots. I need to work on a R-L tee ball for the next trip if I'm lucky enough to have one, though that's tough to do after 45 years of L-R!

Like Augusta, Pine Valley is a great golf course that doesn't need trees for any effect, especially not in the playing corridors. Jim's right--PV doesn't get a pass for this and has been written up on here several times for this, especially pertaining to bunkers lost in the trees. I think PV has addressed some of this (not due to commentary hereon, though, most likely).


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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2009, 11:30:03 AM »
Moreso than any golf course photographs I've seen, those posted depict pure genius.

Mike
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2009, 11:40:05 AM »
Chip,

What year were your pics taken? There has been some tree clearing, and the course does not feel claustrophobic at all.
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Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2009, 11:52:35 AM »
Quote from: Alan FitzGerald on December 28, 2009, 10:02:11 PM


and this is from 1940



Note the "Mackenzie tongue" on the first green (bottom right corner of photo).

TK
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Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2009, 08:25:46 PM »
Quote from: Mark Chaplin on December 29, 2009, 08:44:57 AM
Has anyone played the short course and have photos they can post??

I didn't realize these are that old.... but it hasn't changed much since then, the zoysia hadn't fully come out of dormancy when I took these.

SC1 copy of 10


SC2 copy of 14


SC3 copy of 16


SC3 closer to the green


SC4 original design


SC5 copy of 15 and the only par 4 on the SC (tee shot)


SC5 second shot


SC6 copy of 3


SC7 copy of 13


SC8 copy of 17


SC9 original design The Philly skyline is on the horizon


SC10 copy of 2

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Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2009, 10:43:31 PM »
Tyler Kearns,

That's a good observation.

What bothers me most about PV from a management and "purity of the product" they treasure, is how benign neglect has been able to reign
supreme over all these years.  I could see it happening if they changed Boards and Presidents every two years, but, that's not the case.

Your observation brings another issue to light.
Armed with all of the aerial and ground photos available to PV, why haven't they restored valuable, critical features lost over the years ?

This is a club that treasures its history, its heritage, yet, they've allowed that which they treasure most, the golf course as Crump designed and built
it, to morph further an further away from Crump's vision. 

WHY ?

As custodians and protectors of Crump's architecture, why haven't they been more proactive ?
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JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Pine Valley Photos
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2009, 09:34:25 AM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci_Jr on December 29, 2009, 10:43:31 PM


What bothers me most about PV from a management and "purity of the product" they treasure, is how benign neglect has been able to reign
supreme over all these years.  I could see it happening if they changed Boards and Presidents every two years, but, that's not the case.


Somewhere deep in his bunker,TEPaul has composed a long response to this which will,unfortunately,never see the light of day.
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