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Leo Barber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2009, 09:46:12 PM »
Landing on a fairway and still having to play around or under trees.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #51 on: December 25, 2009, 10:28:52 AM »
Slow play is 1st by a mile

Narrow straight holes with over-hanging tree limbs

Flat boring greens

Hairy greens

Oval flat bunkers set far away from greens

Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #52 on: December 25, 2009, 11:23:21 AM »
If this question is what turns people off then clearly slow play isnt the turn off. By definition slow play woud equal a very busy golf course. The fact a course is good value and so attracts a ot of people very often means its gonna be slow.... TOC can take forever.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #53 on: December 25, 2009, 11:50:27 AM »
If this question is what turns people off then clearly slow play isnt the turn off. By definition slow play woud equal a very busy golf course. The fact a course is good value and so attracts a ot of people very often means its gonna be slow.... TOC can take forever.

Adrian, I heard nobody goes to TOC anymore...it's too crowded ;)

I'm stunned that a poorly placed cup could turn someone away from a course... ??? ::) :-[ :'( :o
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #54 on: December 25, 2009, 12:54:31 PM »
If this question is what turns people off then clearly slow play isnt the turn off. By definition slow play woud equal a very busy golf course. The fact a course is good value and so attracts a ot of people very often means its gonna be slow.... TOC can take forever.

Adrian, I heard nobody goes to TOC anymore...it's too crowded ;)

I'm stunned that a poorly placed cup could turn someone away from a course... ??? ::) :-[ :'( :o
Yes Jeff. I think the main is always the Price > Value relationship. There is a big market (the biggest) for cheap and cheerful, so for me the $100+ green fee would be the biggest turn off for the masses, a highish price then coupled with a course in bad condition would mean less replay income, the payer has had a bad experience. But I agree to not go back somewhere because a cup was in the wrong place is unusual. I can see someone not playing because there are no carts, or even cart path ony, but having to ride a cart would put off much less.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #55 on: December 25, 2009, 02:35:54 PM »
The only thing that ever turned me off to a golf course had nothing to do with the golf course. It always had to do with Management. How one was treated either through interaction or policies.

I use the past tense because before finding this website, I was normal. Now, not so much.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #56 on: December 25, 2009, 03:31:34 PM »
My criteria is pretty simple...

1. Pace of Play!!! Any place where it is impossible for me to play under 4 1/2 hour (especially in the early weekend morning) does not get my business. This is by FAR the most important criteria and dwarfs all others.

2. Value. I am fine with playing on a course with less than ideal architectural value, as long as it is priced accordingly.

That is about it. I will play anywhere as long as they fit the criteria.

I agree completely. Don't waste my time or money and everything is ok. I will overlook most anything for a reasonable green fee and a brisk pace of play. An ice cold beer at the end of a summer day is a real plus :).

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #57 on: December 25, 2009, 03:52:53 PM »
I imagine that being too tough would be the thing that would turn most folks off to a course.  Combine too tough with lack of charm, aesthetics or strategic interest would be the next most likely candidates to do so, no?

Or stated another way, is there any course out there that is considered great that not many people really like?

Can a course that is too difficult for most people to play be considered great?

Jeff - I've heard from several friends at my club that they think Bethage Black is the poster child for exactly what you describe.  One called a "chore" and was happy to be done, but simultaneously praised the design.

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #58 on: December 25, 2009, 04:54:36 PM »
Price is what turns me off mostly regarding golf courses.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #59 on: December 25, 2009, 06:17:04 PM »
 8)  retroviews:

as a club player, playing out.. price really doesn't matter, give me something new and exciting, something different, that's why we travel and go to resorts and exotic destinations like Banff & Gothenburg and even have the fried chicken at the North Platte Airport

when i was playing once a week, and doing an intensive week each spring in FL/TN/NC/SC/GA destinations playing 2-3 a day price-quantity was more important than quality until we learned the most fun courses, then it was get a condo, cook and bring own food play and replay one course a day, relax,.. with a week's choices sometimes dictated by local knowledge .. internal group handicapping and libations made games independent of course conditions 

when I was cutting lawns and laboring for greens fees, price meant everything until I was on the course, being invited to play a country club was priceless



Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #60 on: December 25, 2009, 07:43:40 PM »
1. poor service or attitude of staff.
2. mounding and other wise course looking contrived
3. poor maintance particularly greens.
4. penal hazzards and forced carries that really do not make the hole better just harder for high handicapper.
5. subdivision boundary OB rather than red stake.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2009, 12:46:34 AM »
I believe Jimmy Urbina did Common Ground.  It's right in his back yard and Tom was off (mostly in Scotland) during the Common Ground redo.  I had lunch and dinner with Jim last summer and he is quite proud of CG.  JC

Actually, I thought the man on the scene was Eric Iverson....
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2009, 09:31:01 AM »
Good to have two threads for the price of one...someone please contact Renaissance Golf so we can put the CommonGround thing in the (common) ground, once and for all!

On to Jeff Brauer's initially obvious and subsequently ingenious inquiry...after little thought and much plagiarism, I have assembled this list:

1.  People?  Which people?  Us, them, you guys?

2.  What investment/sacrifice of time, money, effort is at stake here?

3.  How completely focused are our subjects on the golf?  Or, to rephrase, how extreme are the distractions from the golf?

4.  What is the level of golf-breeding of these golfing customers?

5.  How complete are the Entry and Exit Interviews?

6.  How thorough is the "turn off"?

These elements are ultimately so diverse in the clientele of a golf course that the number of potential resolutions and reactions is immeasurable.  I think it helpful to create a measuring device before measuring.  Given the above six questions, I'll take Saratoga National as my test round and give you the following analysis.


1.  People?  Which people?  Us, them, you guys?
At the time, I was a better-than-average golfer, in that I could shoot mid to high seventies on occasion, finding myself mostly in the low to mid eighties for 18 holes from the tips of a golf course.

2.  What investment/sacrifice of time, money, effort is at stake here?
My sacrifice of time was the five to six hours it ultimately took from turning off my car to restarting the bugger.  My sacrifice of money was the usual green fee, probably around $125 at the time for golf and cart plus refreshments.  My sacrifice of effort was little, as I was already up that way to watch a rowing competition.

3.  How completely focused are our subjects on the golf?  Or, to rephrase, how extreme are the distractions from the golf?
I don't recall the names nor the attributes of the folks with whom I was paired, so it is safe to say that we neither bonded nor discouraged/distracted one another.  We probably spoke of common things while waiting to tee off, on the rides to the next shot, while evaluating putting lines.  We noticed all the water and marshland and my guess is that these relentless (Roger Rulewich) hazards kept us focused on the architect's goals of reaching the promised land (or are they losing golf balls?)

4.  What is the level of golf-breeding of these golfing customers?
I knew the names of architects.  I had little experience/reading of their particular stylings and no exposure to the present-day practitioners.  I did not know at the time why I shunned this type of golf course; just that I did.  It did not surprise me to learn that Rulewich had worked with RTJ Senior a great deal.  HOWEVER, I could not complain about the quality of the grounds.  I enjoy fast and firm (although I despise burned out) and I also enjoy soft and slow (although not gooey).

5.  How complete are the Entry and Exit Interviews?
It is the responsibility of the entire team to make the customer feel welcome and unique, be the customer paying public or the guest of a member.  Service is the only element of the industry that matters; people remember the interpersonal touches.  An operation that doesn't understand this is a course that works too hard to get you to the first tee at the beginning and into your car and on your way at the end.  Ambiance extends throughout the entire property.

6.  How thorough is the "turn off"?
Just as we measure chicken wings in Buffalo:  mild, medium or hot?  A proper exit interview immediately erases the mild and goes a long way toward minimizing the medium.  An employee worth its wage will immediately notice the "hot" turn-off player and take steps to investigate/resolve.  The lesson is, train your parking lot club scrubbers in the psychological arts and you'll eliminate a lot of bitter situations before they have a chance to sour.


Ultimately, my experience was a good one, for me and me alone.  The weather could have been kinder; the gods of golf, more lenient.  I would recommend the course to anyone who inquired, with the aforementioned points as my guide.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 09:34:05 AM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2009, 01:16:19 PM »
Turn Offs (beyond price and inconvenience of securing a round)

1. Conditions that breed looking for lost golf balls:  Nearly every moment looking for a lost golf ball is a moment not playing golf and when trees, overgrowth, deep rough, water hazards, blind holes, tight boundaries, (alone or in concert) are the tenor of a course, these "moments" stand to be frequent and I don't want to be there.  Imagine playing poker and on every fourth hand, you spent up to five minutes looking for a card under the table, before an hour was up you'd leave the game.

2.  OB or irrevocable areas within 30 yards of the play area on more than a handful of holes: It would be one thing if we still operated under the old penalty of "distance only" but with stroke and distance,  OB is the ultimate sour apple.  To me and me alone it's one of the things that holds back Quaker Ridge in evaluation, with OB right lurking on the first eight holes.  Who wants to play a course that consistently inspires that kind of timidity?

3.  Poor putting surfaces:  I don't care if the greens run different to one another or if they're slow or fast, but they need to produce a true, smooth roll.  I think producing good rolling conditions can eliminate a lot of deficiencies in players' minds, as I always hear about "true" greens or "hoppy" greens long after other traits are forgotten.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2009, 04:18:00 PM »
1.  Not enough real estate

2.  no tee between 6800 and 5500

3.  rounds over 4:30

4.  90 degree doglegs

5.  forced layups on 2nd shots on par 5s for all but the longest hitters...

6.  pin placements that should only be utilized in conjunction with a clown's mouth

7.  huge clubhouses

8.  cartpath only and no walking

9.  no caddies or carts

10.  no roll due to overwatering

11.  flowerbeds and waterfalls

12.  lots of hands looking to get greased

13.  houses




Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2009, 04:46:28 PM »
I played the newly restored West Palm Beach GC today and they send out groups at 7 minute intervals - we had an 8:36 tee time and actually went off closer to 9:00 - this is an immediate turnoff. BTW: I would recommend it for public play in Palm Beach County but not at 8:30 on a Sunday morning.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2009, 11:02:47 AM »
A sure sign that your day will be a bad one:  Staff members wearing plus-fours in attempt to be "Scottish".

Honestly, daily-fee courses should emulate Kemper Golf because I don't know if anybody does it better.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2009, 12:41:03 PM »
1. Too Difficult to enjoy the game - foreced carries of more than 150-175 yards from the men's tees and 50 yeards from the ladies tees....forced carries over hazards guarding greens with no other way to play around the hazard....The average player wants to be able to reach the green in regulation 30%-50% of the time, and is a satidfied customer when this can happen.   They accept 3 putts for a bogey with large or unulating greens as they are average golfers and will be repaeat customers.
2. Too difficult to locate errant shots .....Corridors too narrow, rough too high, out-of play areas unkept
3. 1& 2 directly relate to PACE OF PLAY
4. Poor Tee turf conditions - customers hate beaten up tees
5. Bumpy greens - customers hate bumpy greens
6. Lousy service - they also hate lousy rude service.

Drew Standley

Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2010, 01:34:50 PM »
1. Pace of play
2. Long green to tee distances
3. Not walkable -- whether it be policy or layout
4. Muddy green surrounds & overwatering -- a Houston staple!
5. Overseeded greens

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2010, 04:36:56 PM »
One other 'thing' really gets me to dislike a place...Looking for balls all day long. Especially when the shots were only marginally terrible and hitting the shot worse would've made for an easy find and easier recovery.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What turns people off to a golf course?
« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2010, 06:19:50 AM »
I imagine that being too tough would be the thing that would turn most folks off to a course.  Combine too tough with lack of charm, aesthetics or strategic interest would be the next most likely candidates to do so, no?

Or stated another way, is there any course out there that is considered great that not many people really like?

Can a course that is too difficult for most people to play be considered great?

Somewhere along the line this thread was seriously derailed.  What are the great courses which are generally not loved?  I don't think there are any that I know of.  The concepts of great and love for courses go hand in hand. 

Yes, I do think that a course too difficult for most can be considered great.  There are literally dozens of the things - they are called championship courses. 

For me, the cost of a game is one of the biggest turn-offs.  It is totally unnecessary.  Looking for golf balls has to rate right up there as a ruin my day feature.  Of course, looking for balls can be caused by many factors all of which are necessary for variety.  The issue is a balance of challenge, playability and efficiency in terms of time to play. 

Long walks between holes always makes me wonder what was so important to make this necessary. 

The way I see it, I just identified a great course which breaks all of these rules - The Ocean Course.  It costs a small fortune.  The walk (or I should say the lift) to the first is one of the most perplexing things I have ever come across on a golf course.  Why the heck is the driving range next to the house when the first tee isn't ? This is a huge turn-off especially as the first isn't anything in the least special.  Likewise for the 10th tee being miles away from the 9th green.  On a windy day, many mid to high cappers must struggle badly with keeping the ball in play.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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