[Patrick_Mucci]

Does anyone else think that but for a select few of the courses mentioned, almost all of these courses are the exact same?

Of the ones I've cited, I don't.

Forced carries over water/marsh, water on every hole, dramatic contouring on the perimeter of the course and the greens, flat fairways, etc., etc.

Boca Rio, Pine Tree, Seminole, Jupiter Hills, (Hills and Village) don't have what you describe above, but, a number of courses do.
Jupiter Hills has the highest elevations in SE Florida and the fairways are anything but flat.
Seminole likewise enjoys substantive elevation changes, but, most of the fairways are flat.
Unfortunately, many courses are flat, but still present a great challenge, Pine Tree and Boca Rio being some of them.

To me, there are less than 10 golf courses in Florida that are good to great.  I'm open to disagreement though.

FWIW, these are the 10(ish):

Seminole
Mountain Lake
Sugarloaf Mountain
Calusa Pines
Pine Tree GC
Hideout
CC Orlando
Pensacola CC

More?

I think Boca Rio qualifies, but, I may be biased.

[Mike Sweeney]

Gosh...saying that there are only 10 good to great  (everything Doak 6 or higher) golf courses in Florida is being tough, but not by much.  Here are the ones that I would include....

Seminole
Mountain Lake
Indian Creek
Johns Island West
World Woods (both courses)
McArthur
Calusa Pines
Deltona Club
Jupiter Hills (both courses)
Boca Rio
Pine Tree
Black Diamond
TPC at Sawgrass
Lake Jovita
Dunes at Seville
Lake Nona
Bay Hill
Sara Bay
Loblolly Pines
Sugarloaf Mountain
Bella Collina

Adam,

I obviously have not gotten around as much as you, but that seems like my list. Playing the New Bay Hill the week after Sugarloaf, so it will be interesting to see what they have done. I hear good things from a biased friend. Nice to see the Deltona love!

[JC Jones]

Does anyone else think that but for a select few of the courses mentioned, almost all of these courses are the exact same?

Of the ones I've cited, I don't.

Forced carries over water/marsh, water on every hole, dramatic contouring on the perimeter of the course and the greens, flat fairways, etc., etc.

Boca Rio, Pine Tree, Seminole, Jupiter Hills, (Hills and Village) don't have what you describe above, but, a number of courses do.
Jupiter Hills has the highest elevations in SE Florida and the fairways are anything but flat.
Seminole likewise enjoys substantive elevation changes, but, most of the fairways are flat.
Unfortunately, many courses are flat, but still present a great challenge, Pine Tree and Boca Rio being some of them.

To me, there are less than 10 golf courses in Florida that are good to great.  I'm open to disagreement though.

FWIW, these are the 10(ish):

Seminole
Mountain Lake
Sugarloaf Mountain
Calusa Pines
Pine Tree GC
Hideout
CC Orlando
Pensacola CC

More?

I think Boca Rio qualifies, but, I may be biased.

Thanks, Pat.  Like I said, I'm basing my opinion off of nothing more than speculation with a lot of these courses. 

[Adam_Messix]

Mike--

I can't wait to hear the reports about the new Bay Hill.  I've heard 2nd hand reports, probably from the same biased friend, who say it's quite good.  I look forward to seeing it soon.

I'm surprised there isn't as much love for Deltona on here too, it's awesome and the hidden gem of the state.  I wasn't sure whether the relatively weak finish of each side hurts it, but the more I play those holes, the better they play in my mind. 

I also forgot a few of courses that would fit the Doak 6+ list....

Pensacola CC
Camp Creek
Victoria Hills
Sharks Tooth (despite the 6th hole)

[Patrick_Mucci]

JC,

My understanding of the geological situation in SE Florida is that the Turnpike is sort of the line of demarcation for real solid ground and that areas west of it are mostly the swamps you refer to.

Early community golf course development seems to have occured along the following lines.

Fairways were crafted from the material from dredged out lakes, giving the homeowner views of lagoons and golfers fairways to play on.

Thus, your description is pretty accurate in many, many cases where the subsoil conditions weren't the greatest.

When you're landing from the west at Palm Beach, Ft Lauderdale or Miami you can see course after course in that mold.

But, while they may represent the majority, there are quality courses that don't have that configuration or look.

 

[Lester George]

Country Club of Florida never shows up on anyones list because so few people see it.  They wouldn't even let the necessary raters in when we renovated it three years ago.  I guarantee that it would make most top 10 lists.  Yes I am biased, but I really believe that.

Lester

[JC Jones]

JC,

My understanding of the geological situation in SE Florida is that the Turnpike is sort of the line of demarcation for real solid ground and that areas west of it are mostly the swamps you refer to.

Early community golf course development seems to have occured along the following lines.

Fairways were crafted from the material from dredged out lakes, giving the homeowner views of lagoons and golfers fairways to play on.

Thus, your description is pretty accurate in many, many cases where the subsoil conditions weren't the greatest.

When you're landing from the west at Palm Beach, Ft Lauderdale or Miami you can see course after course in that mold.

But, while they may represent the majority, there are quality courses that don't have that configuration or look.

 

I don't disagree that there are a few which aren't the way that I described.  It is my assumption that the 8-10 I listed are the exception to that rule.  Here in Naples, we supposedly have 2 that deviate from the configuration/look we speak of (Hideout and Calusa Pines). 

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

i'll second the vote for ritz-carlton club near juno.  its one of the very best nicklaus designs i've seen.

[Matt Waterbury]

Myself and another GCA'er (possibly an Olympic puck player) played Bay Hill and Mountain Lake on back-to-back days last week.

Speaking only for myself, if I had 10 round to play between the two, it would be 7 Mountain Lake and 3 Bay Hill. Take away any chances of seeing Arnie at Bay Hill (he was in the group behind us on Monday) and it would be 8 Mountain Lake.

Cheers,
Matt

[Mike Sweeney]

Myself and another GCA'er (possibly an Olympic puck player) played Bay Hill and Mountain Lake on back-to-back days last week.

Speaking only for myself, if I had 10 round to play between the two, it would be 7 Mountain Lake and 3 Bay Hill. Take away any chances of seeing Arnie at Bay Hill (he was in the group behind us on Monday) and it would be 8 Mountain Lake.

When was the last time that a BU guy had an original thought!  

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=pt0jq3jebb57pbo2mbfek830j1&topic=42377.0

The Black Hand is NEVER wrong!

[Deucie Bies]

It is strange because althought I live in Florida and have played all over the country, I haven't played that many courses in Florida.  Seminole is great and I need to play it again to appreciate it even more.  I was very frustrated at TPC Sawgrass so I have a hard time making an honest assessment of the course.  It is no fun to play when you have no control of where the ball is going.  Mountain Lake is always good.  I am biased, but Lake Nona is a very fun course to play day in and day out.  I need to make it over to the new Bay Hill.  A friend of mine who caddies on the PGA Tour was arguing that they have made the course easier.  I guess we will find out in March.  Old Memorial is tough and is very typical Smyers, but the greens are always rolling great.  There is a possibility that I will be playing Pine Tree in February which I look very forward to if it happens. 

I am not a big fan of resort golf, but what about two tour sites, Innisbrook and Doral?  I have heard good things about Innisbrook, but have never been there.  It has been years since I played Doral.

[Chuck Brown]

Country Club of Florida never shows up on anyones list because so few people see it.  They wouldn't even let the necessary raters in when we renovated it three years ago.  I guarantee that it would make most top 10 lists.  Yes I am biased, but I really believe that.

Lester

Lester, I am so glad that you mentioned the Country Club of Florida.  Yes, it is very little-known.  I know it, by virtue of an old member there, from the Country Club of Detroit (now deceased), who had rather refined tastes in golf clubs, and who thought it the best-kept secret in Florida, and one of the best in the South.
For those not familiar, it is a neighbor of Pine Tree, and is not unlike Pine Tree in layout and terrain, with much less of what thrilled Ben Hogan and what wearied Tom Doak about Pine Tree; the unending need to hit high, soft 3-irons into elevated and heavily-bunkered greens.  Country Club of Florida is shorter, friendlier to the middle-handicap player and perhaps more lush than Pine Tree.
Would you agree Lester?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chuck,

If golfers are hitting 3-irons into every green at Pine Tree, they're playing from the wrong tees 
And, deserve their fate and score 

[Bill_McBride]

Mike--

I can't wait to hear the reports about the new Bay Hill.  I've heard 2nd hand reports, probably from the same biased friend, who say it's quite good.  I look forward to seeing it soon.

I'm surprised there isn't as much love for Deltona on here too, it's awesome and the hidden gem of the state.  I wasn't sure whether the relatively weak finish of each side hurts it, but the more I play those holes, the better they play in my mind. 

I also forgot a few of courses that would fit the Doak 6+ list....

Pensacola CC
Camp Creek
Victoria Hills
Sharks Tooth (despite the 6th hole)

Thanks, Adam, very perceptive!      Pensacola CC was #1 Private Renovation in 2006 in Golf Inc awards.

[Brad Fleischer]

Obviously I have not seen to many of the privates but I would second Deltona. Good elevation change for Florida and the restoration
work done has in my mind really elevated this track.

I would disagree on Ocean Hammock but that is probably because of all the encroaching housing and condos as well
as the fact it's now Private to resort guests only which by the way I was surprised to hear given the economic climate.
If you saw it before all the houses and condo's you would know what I mean. It's still a good course but looking at
the lists above it's a step below what is listed based on the one's I have played and the reputation of the one's I have not and
yes I'm pissed I can't just walk on and play anymore .

Brad

[Chuck Brown]

Chuck,

If golfers are hitting 3-irons into every green at Pine Tree, they're playing from the wrong tees  
And, deserve their fate and score  

(Patrick, I never much believed it myself, but I wrote it as an inside joke for all who are devotees and owners of a copy of "The Confidential Guide."  See, Florida; "Pine Tree.")

[Steve Sayre]

Played Village course at Jupiter Hills last week.  Really good, really fun. Lot's of the good member players prefer it to Hills.

[John_Conley]

I didn't comb over everyone's suggestions, but some omissions I really like:

Juliette Falls
Golden Hills
Golden Ocala
Mission Inn - El Campeon
North Palm Beach

My state top ten definitely includes John's Island West, Jupiter Hills, and Pine Barrens at World Woods.

If you look at the state's best fifty they are very good.  Of course, as was discussed into oblivion with Matt Ward years ago, that's out of 1,000 or more.  Don't penalize Florida because it has a very large denominator.  The good ones in the numerator are quite good.  And like the guy said that started Calusa Pines....I may not have a better golf course than Pine Valley in July, but I sure have a better one in January!

[Anthony_Nysse]

Johns Island West is a worthy track, as well.

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[Matt_Ward]

Brad F:

You are spot on with your take on Ocean Hammock -- when Palm Coast actually looked like "ole" Florida before the massive invasion of homes, gated communities and all the rest of the "progressive clutter" -- the Nicklaus layout there really shined. Sad to say but many Florida courses either are at that point or close to it.

Ocean Hammock really does have numerous quality holes and the routing gives plenty of movement so a wind pattern one day doesn't become predictable in the either it's with one or against you depending if your playing one direction or the other.

The encroachment you described makes me wonder how many Florida courses can stave off the feelings of claustrophobia when playing. Sad to say so much of Florida golf is predictable -- OB on one side and mega H20 on the other.

John C:

You are right -- there are a number of worthy courses to play in the state. Even if they follow in so many instances a formulaic pattern as I mentioned in answering Brad. The sad part is that the public side of the equation -- not the simply high end resort types -- are usually near the bottom of the rung when you place all the courses together.

I've had a few favorites of mine over the years in that category -- places like Colony West in Tamarac, Key Biscayne and when in Orlando I've always fanied the 36-hole complex at Orange County National.

[Lester George]

Chuck,

I think the terrain at CCF is better because of the two natural dunes that run through the property.  From a shot-value perspective, I thyink CCF is also more varied and therefore better, although I have only toured Pine Tree on severasl occasions.    

I lengthened it to 7,064 yards when I renovated it but added many intermediate tees.  They have a VERY STRONG playing senior membership (both men and women) and for the most part they play from the correct places.  There are several younger members who play from the back that have no business there and the course usually wears them out.  

Lester

[Brad Huff]

Pablo Creek

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