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TEPaul

Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2009, 11:51:43 PM »
Since this is the season to admit to transgressions, I admit I edit my post all the time, and always have, ever since I've been on this website. Is that some kind of weakness or transgression? ;)

The reason I do it and always have on here is I seem to be incapable of thinking any faster or slower than my fingers work----eg that I type. And so for the ten or so years I've been on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com I just think at the same speed I type---and here's the bad part, for which I admit I am so sorry for this transgression  :o----I then JUST hit the post button without reviewing what I've written before posting it-----and then I review what I've written once it's been posted and then if there seems to be some reason to edit a post, I do it at that point or later or after I've gotten another cup of coffee or shaved or taken a shit or gone and hit balls or run an errand or whatever.

I'm so sorry; what could I have been thinking all these years to do something like that?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 11:55:38 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2009, 12:09:15 AM »
Tom ...Rich is such a loss

Peoples 'passionate intensity' is the reason I rarely post or start new threads....its really not worth the effort.

I can envision the day when I even stop checking in.

Why bother?

So many other things to do.

But I will hold dear the memory of the many friends I have made here, and the excitement of ideas that we shared...on a truly interesting DG of old.

The pioneering period is over, and the settlers are taking over to root and rule.

Its about time to move on.

Hold the fort if its still worth it my friend.

Love you and you know where to find me.





 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 12:11:58 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2009, 12:50:43 AM »
Paul:

I love you too, and the fact is you're on here so infrequently too these days and that's depressing. You're one of the very best---a real out-side-the-box thinker---and to me that's no less than the future or GCA. I learned so much from you both here and in the field.

And who knows a fort like you know a fort? Is there anything left to hold? You call them the settlers on here left to root and rule; frankly I wouldn't say it so kind. All the people who have come and gone. I miss most all of them a lot. For God's Sake, even Ran Morrissett hasn't really made a post on this DG for who really knows how long? What does that say about GOLFCLUBATLAS.com now?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2009, 09:40:07 AM »
No problem Jim Kennedy; as you know I have no idea who the hell you are or where you're coming from and I really don't care what you think; haven't for a while now due to the posts you've put on here for quite some time both to me and in response to things I've said on here about architecture which weren't to you and had nothing to do with you. I have no hesitation in telling you I think you are a piece of shit and a truly inconsequential and petty little piece of shit at that.

TEP,
You are even smaller than I could have imagined. Your foul mouth and bullying tactics are repulsive. Go away. 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

tlavin

Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2009, 09:53:12 AM »
"The Power of the site and its participants"?  Give me an official break.  All of this self-congratulatory, self-important, aren't-we-the-greatest-thing-since-sliced-bread bullcrap is most unwelcome.  And it comes from somebody who's been on the board for a solid three months.  I like inspiring stories as much as the next guy, but I'm outta here if we continue down the road of self-help lingo and quoting the Bible.  This site is great because it has a lot of fun people who like talking about the game, the golf courses and the history of both.  Period.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2009, 10:03:23 AM »
Tom

You have fallen out with me because you feel I have attacked you at some time in the past. However, when you read my words you would have noted that I was in agreement with you.

With the mountain of post I would have thought that you would have know better than Tiger and been able to control your language on this site. If not for your own sake but for the other members, their wives who sometimes read the post and not forgetting the Lady Members of GCA.com.

Will you be following in Tigers footsteps and taking a break from posting or do you have the control to stop your poor language for the sake of others on GCA.com.

In addition, the world is bigger than Merion. My own family have to privilege to helping to start golf on your continent before I believe the idea of Merion, One course in Quebec 1875 and at least one near Darien Georgia 1880’s.
Can’t you take a leaf out of Wayne’s book and show some courtesy or has that also become an unacceptable word on GCA.com.

Lighten up, say what you mean, but can’t you say it with less vile and venom.

As with all of us, we each have a choice in how we behave. Said with good intentions in the hope of mutual consideration.

Melvyn   

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2009, 05:03:30 PM »
I just got back home from Sea Island about 15 minutes ago and I only have time to check in real quick.  Two points...

#1---Tom Macwood's post #14 (I think it was) is EXACTLY the kind of stuff that I think can help coordinate the research process.  Tom...awesome stuff!!!  This is the type of stuff that people can use to focus their next rounds of research on and if we are looking to accomplish a BIG project, the seperate line items can be delegated to groups to help the process along.  Again, great post!!

#2--We lost another contributor?  Ugh!!!  That sucks!  

I've got to go be with the family, since I've been on another golf boondoogle!!!  

Later!!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 10:01:59 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2009, 05:24:58 PM »
Mac,
Keep trying...  There's a LOT more that binds the treehouse members together than tears us apart.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2009, 06:55:33 PM »
Why did Rich Goodale leave the site ?

He was bright, articulate and brought and interesting perspective to the site.

What caused him to leave ?

Rich, if you're looking in, please reconsider and return.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2009, 02:55:36 AM »
Yes Rhictm if you're reading this...

Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Let's make GCA grate again!

TEPaul

Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2009, 09:36:16 AM »
Our own "Question-Man"  ;) himself, Patrick Mucci, asked;


"Why did Rich Goodale leave the site ?
He was bright, articulate and brought and interesting perspective to the site.
What caused him to leave ?
Rich, if you're looking in, please reconsider and return."



Pat:

If you don’t know why RichG left Golfclubatlas, you should email him and ask him, as I did. What he had to say is good to know and instructive. But if you can’t even imagine why he left you probably aren’t paying attention very well.

Rich became dissatisfied and disinterested in what he calls “the community” on here. He felt the same old issues were being rehashed over and over again. And he felt there was a lack of decorum and respect amongst many of the participants. It seems an interest in ongoing arguing and triviality became too much the norm on here and less the infrequent occurrence.

You and I have spoken about these kinds of things over the years and what to do about it and we’ve spoken to Ran about it, and, as you well know, it’s just a hard thing to answer or resolve. It may even be the nature of the Internet with websites that deal with the kinds of things we do on here. It’s always been sort of amazing for me to consider, and it might have something to do with my age, but it looks to me like the shelf-life of a site like this may be inherently limited with its basic subject. I don’t think Golfclubatlas will lose popularity, just that its content and direction will change, as it already has. As Rich mentioned the same old things seem to get rehashed over and over again and the original participants who very well may’ve been the best and brightest out there just lose interest and tend to slip away.

As you know, Pat, the site has become less the entity it once was where fresh golf architecture issues were brought up and dealt with sparely but with some substance and impact (one can't help notice this if they check out how short most of the oldest and best threads were). Over time unimportant and insignificant trivialities seemed to get brought into too many threads (for which I certainly am not blamless ;) ) and arguing and adversity ensued and then worse yet way too many threads became the norm that were just irrelevant and OT to golf architecture. Consequently, Golfclubatlas became more of a general “chat room” than the site dedicated to architectural understanding and really important issues and information that it began as and once was.

Is this somebody’s fault? Perhaps, but that’s probably somewhat ancillary as this kind of thing may be virtually inevitable in this fast and instantaneous communication Internet world we live in and use.

But I’ll tell you, in my opinion, Rich Goodale was one of the best we had. He was well mannered, well informed and pretty damned intellectual and it showed in what he said and how he presented himself and offered what he had to say (often with some humor both self-deprecating and otherwise-----with flashes of clear deep-thinking including even classically based and inspired nuggets of information).

His email certainly inspired me; after considering it for a few hours, I sent my email into Ran Morrissett and asked him to resign me from this website in the very same manner that Rich asked him to----which, as you know, was done.


« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 09:39:10 AM by TEPaul »

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2009, 10:02:58 AM »
Well, Tom...that SUCKS!!!!

If you really did resign from the site, I, for one, am profoundly disappointed.

Concerning the OT threads...delete them.  I was told by Ran when I joined that all non-architectural topics would be deleted.  So...delete them...and get rid of the non-core B.S.

Concerning the on topic threads, you just contributed significantly to the Northshore threads.  If you hadn't been there, would they have gone to the historical society?  Maybe, but who knows for sure.  Steve did it, but you and Moriarty both have clear suggestions to take that step.  Did your nudge help?  I have to believe it did.

Anyway, do what you must...but please re-consider.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

TEPaul

Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2009, 11:01:13 AM »
Mac:

Well, I'm sorry about that, but look, I've already told you both on and off this website that I admire you and what you are trying to do on here and I really mean that. But as an example of what's wrong on here just look at this thread of yours that Tony Muldoon called a breath of fresh air, which I couldn't agree with more!

This place has just become a daily blood-bath amongst a number of people on a number of threads, subjects and issues. It's daily arguing, and over some incredible trivialities on top of it, who can deny it? Have I been partly responsible for that and contributed to it? Of course I have but nevertheless, I am truly supportive of stopping it and that's exactly why I'm encouraging you and others to listen to you. I'm listening to you and was willing to get on board with what you're suggesting but again look at this thread----eg some guy slammed this thread for being something like self important and self-congratulatory----and now he's gone---off the board.

Look at some of the other recent threads----constant arguing over some real trivialities and accusations from the same small group of people towards one another about diviseness and such. Who needs that kind of stuff as it goes on day after day, month after month and year after year? I don't, even if I seem to have hung in there with it for so long.

I'm just tired of it now. And, also, as I'm sure you can imagine this kind of thing (even just a website like this one) can become addictive and that has to stop at some point---at least it does for me.

I, by no means know what's going on with all the threads on this site but with some of the ones I've seen and the same people that always seem to be part of them creating disruptiveness----my suggestion would be that the following people should take a vacation from Golfclubatlas.com or just leave it altogether, and for good, because they create far too much adversity and arguing and disruptiveness on here for various reasons which just never seems to have any resolution at the end of the tunnel----even including what I thought was your good and hopeful resolution;

1. David Moriarty
2. Jim Kennedy
3. Tom MacWood
4. Melvyn Hunter Morrow
5. Tom Paul

If they all did take time off or just leave altogether I dare say the rest on here would see that this place would settle down to at least the dull roar it needs to be. I'm leaving, Mac; but I think you're a great guy who has shown a real interest and dedication to learn and understand and in a very nice way. If I can ever help you or anyone else you're aware of in any way at all, you know where to find me.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2009, 11:14:08 AM »
Sorry Tom, but your off-site on your own. 
 
Even though you have probably forgotten more than most people will ever learn about GCA, you are the one that chose to see opposite opinions as a threat, and reacted to those persons in a way that forced them to give it right back to you.

You have brought this on yourself, don't blame others. 

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2009, 11:28:27 AM »
If I made myself into a lightening rod on here for various reasons, I'll take responsibility for that. As for the others I mentioned, I'm sure time will tell. It pretty much always does, it seems.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2009, 11:41:10 AM »
TEP,
It's too bad you chose to become a lightning rod, you were much more pleasant as a spark plug.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2009, 01:05:55 PM »
TEPaul,

I disagree with you with respect to having the list of people you posted, take time off.

What's hurt the site is OT's and the paucity of meaningful architectural threads.

With a little enmity thrown in.

If OT's were deleted and participants who continue to post them, removed, the discussions would go back to more meaningful architectural topics.

As to civility, a little angst is OK, but, just a little.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2009, 01:40:12 PM »
Patrick, with all due respect, it has been strictly the architectural topics that have generated the enmity here. I view the OTs as inconsequential but perhaps necessary safety valves for DG members to blow off steam.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2009, 02:51:07 PM »
Mac:

Well, I'm sorry about that, but look, I've already told you both on and off this website that I admire you and what you are trying to do on here and I really mean that. But as an example of what's wrong on here just look at this thread of yours that Tony Muldoon called a breath of fresh air, which I couldn't agree with more!

This place has just become a daily blood-bath amongst a number of people on a number of threads, subjects and issues. It's daily arguing, and over some incredible trivialities on top of it, who can deny it? Have I been partly responsible for that and contributed to it? Of course I have but nevertheless, I am truly supportive of stopping it and that's exactly why I'm encouraging you and others to listen to you. I'm listening to you and was willing to get on board with what you're suggesting but again look at this thread----eg some guy slammed this thread for being something like self important and self-congratulatory----and now he's gone---off the board.

Look at some of the other recent threads----constant arguing over some real trivialities and accusations from the same small group of people towards one another about diviseness and such. Who needs that kind of stuff as it goes on day after day, month after month and year after year? I don't, even if I seem to have hung in there with it for so long.

I'm just tired of it now. And, also, as I'm sure you can imagine this kind of thing (even just a website like this one) can become addictive and that has to stop at some point---at least it does for me.

I, by no means know what's going on with all the threads on this site but with some of the ones I've seen and the same people that always seem to be part of them creating disruptiveness----my suggestion would be that the following people should take a vacation from Golfclubatlas.com or just leave it altogether, and for good, because they create far too much adversity and arguing and disruptiveness on here for various reasons which just never seems to have any resolution at the end of the tunnel----even including what I thought was your good and hopeful resolution;

1. David Moriarty
2. Jim Kennedy
3. Tom MacWood
4. Melvyn Hunter Morrow
5. Tom Paul

If they all did take time off or just leave altogether I dare say the rest on here would see that this place would settle down to at least the dull roar it needs to be. I'm leaving, Mac; but I think you're a great guy who has shown a real interest and dedication to learn and understand and in a very nice way. If I can ever help you or anyone else you're aware of in any way at all, you know where to find me.

TomP

Well, if that is your idea of a trouble maker, I am guilty as the day is long over arguing the toss.  The thing to keep in mind is that this site is meant to be entertaining - for me anyway.  When things turn ugly get off the thread.  Folks will quickly get the idea that you aren't having any of it if you don't respond/contribute. 

If you really are hitting the road, keep yer head down and don't work too hard.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Hartlepool

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2009, 02:58:42 PM »
If anyone really cares about cause of the animosity on the site, a good place to start would be to go back and read through TEPaul's posts on this very thread.   Of the 42 responses to the original post, 13 of them are his, which is typical; if he is involved in a thread usually at least 1/3 of the posts are his.  As is also usual, his posts are all over the road, swerving like a sloppy drunk behind the wheel, careening off of well meaning and cooperative and running head on into the kind of rudeness that has no place on this site.  And we have a lot the sort of subtle character assignation by implication that is his forte.  A few of the lowlights on the digression to absolute rudeness:

". . . I have never found anyone unwilling to work with me or me and some of my friends in this interest we all have other than two, and I think you can imagine who they are. I've offered to work with them over the years and not just once but many times and they know that good and well and I'm sure they'd even admit it. That just happens to be something that does not seem to be their style or their interest with certain people on here and on certain subjects. They turned me down each and every time on a number of subjects I proposed working together on. This goes back a long, long way on here and it involved various clubs and courses but the primary one was Merion. They didn't have the slightest interest, it seems, in working with me or those here who have been involved intimately in that subject for many years----even before GOLFCLUBALTAS.com existed.
. . . I have every confidence you will pretty much see that only one or both of last few indicate what's going on here or wrong here. 
. . . I think the truth is this website has about a handful of people on it, and some who've been around for a while, who are pretty much on here just to argue, no matter what the subject is. I guess they just think they are good at argumentation and they probably just do it constantly to prove to someone that they can be persuasive somehow.
. . . You wondered above if Jim Kennedy and I are kidding on here; we're not. I know who MacWood and Moriarty are and where they're coming from but I have no idea who Jim Kennedy is or where he's coming from on here. A lot of people have asked me that lately and I have to tell them I have no idea at all. But it sure looks to me like he wants to be something like a forum moderator when he grows up.
. . .  some don't want to help most others on here, they only want to prove them wrong!
. . .  Regarding your post #12, the reason I make posts like those to you, and will continue to, is simply and solely because I view you as remarkably constant and consistent in responding to me on just about anything in a negative way with your attitude and style of petty insinuations and accusations. It's not a bit more complex than that and has nothing to do with any voices or whatever in my head. 
. . . You're right, I sure do. This is interesting in that it seems we are agreeing more and more on here. I hope that isn't depressing to you in any way!
. . . It doesn't surprise me you don't remember if that is correct; it's probably a matter of the fact that you've never known. Would you like me to explain to you who helped Shinnecock understand the mistake they'd made in their architectural attribution and why?
. . . No problem Jim Kennedy; as you know I have no idea who the hell you are or where you're coming from and I really don't care what you think; haven't for a while now due to the posts you've put on here for quite some time both to me and in response to things I've said on here about architecture which weren't to you and had nothing to do with you. 'I have no hesitation in telling you I think you are a piece of shit and a truly inconsequential and petty little piece of shit at that.'"


Now in the middle of all that, throw in a few idle threats to quit, way too many disingenuous smilies, and a few posts like this . . .
" . . . I think we should all return (at least on this thread) to Mac Plumart's spirit of hopefulness and future cooperation on here (what Tony Muldoon said was like a breath of fresh air---keep it up) and dispense with all these insinuations of past problems and past adverserialness."

All of above is TEPaul trying to be on good behavior and cooperative!   Usually he doesn't bother with that!  Until he changes or the website is willing to deal with this obvious elephant in the room, there is little hope for cooperation. 

What other poster woulld write: "I think you are a piece of shit and a truly inconsequential and petty little piece of shit at that."
What other poster would get away with it, with 99% of the other posters simply turning their heads as if not to notice?
________________________________________


If anyone is interested in leaving the site, there is no need to involve Ran.

1.  Log On.

2.  Go to "Profile Info" (Easiest way is to click on your own username next to one of your posts.)

3.  Click On "Account Related Settings" under "Modify Profile" on the right.

4. In the section marked Name: completely delete or erase your user name.

5.  Enter your Current Password where indicated.

6.  Click "Change profile."

I hope this helps.

Good Luck.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2009, 03:46:35 PM »
Patrick, with all due respect, it has been strictly the architectural topics that have generated the enmity here. I view the OTs as inconsequential but perhaps necessary safety valves for DG members to blow off steam.


Rick is 100% correct.

While O/T sometimes becomes too much and moves good thread s on too fast. The moderators could easily fix that by having 2 forums on here.  What the O/T threads do is bond people together and allow them to realise it’s possible to have a little fun here and that we have more interests in common than we do that tear us apart.  ON a thread the other day which quickly went O/T I saw someone who last month had speared a guy on here congratulate him on his contributions to this recent one.  It mends bridges and as Bob Huntley once said without any O/T this place would be as dull as ditchwater.  Ran and Ben please find a way to accommodate O/T, it's essential.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2009, 01:45:22 PM »
Geez: When someone says something I'm not thrilled with, I ignore it,, don't respond to it and actually do my required work at the office for a day or so and then come back.  the Board has moved on from what was a heated topic and the discussion continues.

I don't always agree which everyone's perspective, but we've all entitled to our opinions.

I enjoyed Rich G's international flair over the years and TEP's entertaining stories....both would be missed if they're not involved.


BK

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2009, 02:50:03 PM »
I think one of the biggest problems this site has is that virtually all posters take themselves too seriously, and others not seriously enough. I think that is largely the result of the mechanics of internet communication, not the posters themselves.

I can't offer much in the way of solutions, but I can say it's a mistake for anyone to leave.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2009, 08:30:15 PM »
I think the only way this Forum might have a fighting chance to become better in the future....is if the Moderators took a tough stance and enacted very specific Rules for Engagement;

Personal attacks/malicious statements/really poor decorum etc.  [and I don't mean saying 'shit' on the occasion when it might be the best noun available], would receive the following;                    

30 day Guest status.

Second offense....6 months.

Third....permanent Guest status.

Its really not that hard to be civil.....and most of those who can't abide will probably off themselves in short measure.....or move on to something more titillating and ego enhancing..
 







« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 08:44:24 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Power of the site and its participants
« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2009, 08:42:15 PM »
.....second thought....maybe the Owner could ask for a contribution of 50 bucks from each member to support a full time Whack a Mole.

paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

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