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Joe Hancock

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Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2009, 04:41:44 PM »
Ian,

That's a great question. My disclaimer would be that I'm not as nearly well traveled as many of the folks on here, but there has to be an answer to your question.....

My first thought is spines in greens. Diagonally, front to back, side to side......I like the several greens at Jackson CC (Jackson, MI) that incorporate this.

I don't think I'm qualified to answer your next question, because I haven't re-created a lot of ODG work. But, I will say this; The methodology of that era (Ross, MacKenzie, MacDonald, etc.) was all over the map.....local farmers, traveling foremen, etc. that it's tough to know what's appropriate on a site that has already had wholesale changes. I did some work at Barton Hills recently...and there's neat green pads there, that have really abrupt edges and fall-offs...youd almost have to make a push with the dozer blade, stop, leave that hard edge, and then shovel and rake to finish it off for the proper look and feel. That's a challenge....finding unconventional ways to utilize modern equipment to make old looking work. It's a fun challenge!

On site story: I was working with the course owner at The Rose, felling trees. He sets down the saw, takes off running, and returns a few minutes later carrying his Carrharts....fast forward a couple days, when his daughter rolls up and says "Dad, I'm cold." He offers his Carrharts, still in the bed of his truck because of the previous "incident". She accepts. I asked him if he had washed them...."Oh Sh*t!!!"

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Joe Hancock

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Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2009, 04:43:44 PM »
Anthony,

I've had one Hole In One at the 7th hole, Fox Squirrel CC. Perfect....hit 2 feet past the hole and backed it in. It rained all morning, for those waiting to pounce on my irrigation preaching...... ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2009, 04:49:41 PM »
Ian,

That's a great question. My disclaimer would be that I'm not as nearly well traveled as many of the folks on here, but there has to be an answer to your question.....

My first thought is spines in greens. Diagonally, front to back, side to side......I like the several greens at Jackson CC (Jackson, MI) that incorporate this.

I don't think I'm qualified to answer your next question, because I haven't re-created a lot of ODG work. But, I will say this; The methodology of that era (Ross, MacKenzie, MacDonald, etc.) was all over the map.....local farmers, traveling foremen, etc. that it's tough to know what's appropriate on a site that has already had wholesale changes. I did some work at Barton Hills recently...and there's neat green pads there, that have really abrupt edges and fall-offs...youd almost have to make a push with the dozer blade, stop, leave that hard edge, and then shovel and rake to finish it off for the proper look and feel. That's a challenge....finding unconventional ways to utilize modern equipment to make old looking work. It's a fun challenge!

On site story: I was working with the course owner at The Rose, felling trees. He sets down the saw, takes off running, and returns a few minutes later carrying his Carrharts....fast forward a couple days, when his daughter rolls up and says "Dad, I'm cold." He offers his Carrharts, still in the bed of his truck because of the previous "incident". She accepts. I asked him if he had washed them...."Oh Sh*t!!!"

Joe

Beg pardon, Mr. Hancock sir, what the hell are "Carrharts?"

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2009, 04:55:42 PM »
Bill -

Took me awhile to figure that story out myself. I'm assuming the fact that he took off the Carrharts (read: overalls, uniform, etc) - meant they weren't exactly clean, following the falling trees.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2009, 05:00:49 PM »
I didn't know Carrharts was an obscure reference...maybe because I used the Anthony Gray spelling system!

So let me be more specific for y'all......he was wearing overalls and then he pooped 'em...........then he wasn't wearing them, but then his daughter was......pooped and all.....

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Anthony Gray

Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2009, 05:10:12 PM »


  Joe,

  Man of the Year at STATE.....Tom Izzo or Rich Rodriguez?

 Are wolverines wood chucks or rodents?

  Would you like to own a course again?

  Is Mike Young a father figure?

  If there was an annual GCA eventin the north i e Dixie Cup, What should it be called?

  Thanks..........Anthony



 

   

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2009, 05:22:29 PM »
Anthony,

Izzo...RR is only in East Lansing once in awhile at game time...and that may change too.

weasels

Perhaps...has to be a good business plan as the novelty aspect is expensive

Sure, even though we're about the same age

Not sure of the name...I'd work towards something clever if it were my event though

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2009, 05:24:30 PM »
I didn't know Carrharts was an obscure reference...maybe because I used the Anthony Gray spelling system!

So let me be more specific for y'all......he was wearing overalls and then he pooped 'em...........then he wasn't wearing them, but then his daughter was......pooped and all.....

Joe

Sort of like big Oshkosh overalls?  That is a pretty foul story all things considered.

Steve Wilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2009, 06:28:47 PM »
Re;  A northern counterpart to the Dixie Cup

I think Dan Kelly established the ultimate alternate event--THE MASON JAR.
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Anthony Gray

Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2009, 10:04:52 PM »


  Joe,

  how much creative freedom do you have as a shaper?

  What sweater goes better with lime green plus 4's? Lime green or lime green?

  I have a two year old daughter, How do i get her in bed at night?

  State had a tall point guard in the late 70's, What ever hapened to him?

  I told my wife I didn't understand what all the fuss is about Tiger having a few friends on the side. Should I have kept my mouth shut?

  Do you think the PGA tour lacks fasion?

  Thanks..............Anthony


Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2009, 02:22:35 AM »
Some architecture related questions for you.

What is your favorite type of hazard? Least favorite type?

What is your favorite golf hole and/or what hole would you most like to play? And Why?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2009, 01:22:41 PM »
Some architecture related questions for you.

What is your favorite type of hazard? Least favorite type?

What is your favorite golf hole and/or what hole would you most like to play? And Why?

Hi Charlie,

My favorite type of hazard would be the sand bunker. It can be implemented in endless numbers of ways...location, style, number, etc. The aesthetic component is irresistible. That said, sand can be, and often should be, used in moderation.

My least favorite hazard is water. The penalty is expensive and sure. There's no opportunity for heroics except on rare occasion. Golf balls and ball gitters are expensive.

My favorite golf hole? Of the ones I've played, I'd have to say the 7th at Crystal Downs is pretty fun. It's all about the green. The hole I'd most like to play would be the 16th at Cypress Point....the challenge of the tee shot, the view, the previous 15 holes along with the following two holes..... :)

I tried really hard to stay away from canned, obvious, or name-drop type holes in my answer to your question. But, in the two holes I cited, their greatness is unavoidable.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2009, 02:37:11 PM »
two more questions.

What is the most overlooked aspect of golf architecture, and why?

What is the most important trait a golf course must possess in order to pass muster in your eyes?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2009, 02:45:50 PM »
What is your waste size?

Joe --

TMI, you think?

How about this one, then: What is your waist size?

Oh, and if there are any other sizes you care to share -- go right ahead!

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2009, 02:46:14 PM »
 Joe,

    I want to thank you for your frank and creative ideas expressed in one  walking of a course. Where did you get your chutzpah?
AKA Mayday

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2009, 02:51:18 PM »
Joe,

May I ask a few more? 

Yours is a voice of reason on this site and I really appreciate the way in which you manage to inject common sense into a discussion. Just wanted to say that again.

1. What was "the good stuff" in the fridge when you were in TX working with Nuzzo & Don at Wolf Point?

2. Why do greens oftentimes have to be rebuilt in 15-20 years?

3. What's the largest green (approx. SF) that you have helped build? 

4. The smallest? 

5. Your favorite?

6. I have a good friend who is a heckuva super. He can and has had to do it all on a shoestring budget.  With that shoestring he made the place shine mostly because he was there all the time.  We had it sooo good when he was there.  His pet peeve is a staff without a mechanic.  His most vocal complaint to the owners was when they eliminated the mechanic for budgetary reasons.  This was a major problem for him as he was already spread very thin and the equipment needed constant attention.  His "staff" of 3-4 others in high season were teenagers, no experts, just laborers.  They never saw it his way and they ended up losing him.  Do you suscribe to the notion that a mechanic is as important to the golf course as David did/does?


EXTRA CREDIT

7. Pat Ward-Thomas' "Elements of Greatness - A Classic 18 hole Course" names what course's first hole as the ideal opener?

BONUS


8. What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?


Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2009, 03:00:32 PM »
two more questions.

What is the most overlooked aspect of golf architecture, and why?

What is the most important trait a golf course must possess in order to pass muster in your eyes?

Charlie,

The thing about these "most" type questions is that they really boil down to opinion....and mine changes a lot as I continue to learn from the vast number of people who are smarter than me. With that being said, here's my opinion, at the moment!  :)


Overlooked aspect: My first reaction is to say maintenance, but I don't want to sound like I'm knocking supers, as I don't blame them for the current culture we're in....green, lush, deep rough, etc. It's more likely that the committees and owners of golf courses have been led astray by TV in their desire to have a "respectable" golf course. I think the design and the maintenance have to be in harmony for a golf course to achieve all that it can, design and playability-wise.

Important trait: Fun. That's the foremost aspect I tune in to. For me, fun golf happens on obvious and intangible levels. I can see, feel and play things like rumply ground, greens and surrounds with fun contours and bunkers with short grass around them. Those are obvious fun things to me. Things I have a more difficult, if not impossible time determining are fun aspects of routing, or other "feel" aspects of the property. I try to analyze that as much as I'm capable of, but often, the most fun golf courses possess an intangibility about them....keeping the fun factor a bit of mystery....and i think that is a very important trait. If you've ever played a course that you had so much fun playing that you immediately wanted to go back to the first tee, you know what I mean. My most recent experience of that feeling was at Aiken GC during the Dixie Cup. What a fun golf course!

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Kalen Braley

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Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2009, 03:02:42 PM »
Answers to be found here....at least one of em!!   ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWS8Mg-JWSg&feature=related

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2009, 03:04:45 PM »
What is your waste size?

Joe --

TMI, you think?

How about this one, then: What is your waist size?

Oh, and if there are any other sizes you care to share -- go right ahead!

Dan

To know Anthony, is to no Anthony....some questions are best left unanswered!

You know what would be fun? Run one of Anthony's typical posts through The Dialectizer....

http://rinkworks.com/dialect/

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2009, 03:12:31 PM »
Joe,

    I want to thank you for your frank and creative ideas expressed in one  walking of a course. Where did you get your chutzpah?

When I'm in Virginia, I get it here:

http://www.chutzpahdeli.com/

I have some regrets over how little I filter my thoughts before I express them. When you were gracious enough to take the time to show me and my sons around Rolling Green, I should have been more of a listener, as I couldn't possibly know anything about what was a good idea or not, in comparison to you. But hey, I'm still young and learning. I'm excited about getting back there when i have some time, to see all the changes that have taken place since my last visit. I hope to give you more advance notice than my most recent attempt!

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2009, 03:23:38 PM »
 Joe,

    I think if you filter the ideas they get encrusted by conventionality.

      Let them fly. I think of two ideas as examples. On #9 we have a creek to the right of weak second shots on a long par five. You suggested we move the fairway toward it to bring it more into play. Whether I agree or not with the idea I see it as a creative view of bringing natural hazards more into play. Secondly, you suggested on #11 that we make more use of the hill to the left of the green by making it fairway to the left and beyond the bunker. This would increase the unpredictabilty of that approach.

    In both of these instances I understood the possibilities that you saw in your first visit .  Yet I played the course hundreds of times without thinking of those two things.

    Besides, telling me something assures that it will go no farther since no one listens to me ;D
AKA Mayday

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2009, 03:27:53 PM »
Joe,

May I ask a few more? 

Yours is a voice of reason on this site and I really appreciate the way in which you manage to inject common sense into a discussion. Just wanted to say that again.

1. What was "the good stuff" in the fridge when you were in TX working with Nuzzo & Don at Wolf Point?

2. Why do greens oftentimes have to be rebuilt in 15-20 years?

3. What's the largest green (approx. SF) that you have helped build? 

4. The smallest? 

5. Your favorite?

6. I have a good friend who is a heckuva super. He can and has had to do it all on a shoestring budget.  With that shoestring he made the place shine mostly because he was there all the time.  We had it sooo good when he was there.  His pet peeve is a staff without a mechanic.  His most vocal complaint to the owners was when they eliminated the mechanic for budgetary reasons.  This was a major problem for him as he was already spread very thin and the equipment needed constant attention.  His "staff" of 3-4 others in high season were teenagers, no experts, just laborers.  They never saw it his way and they ended up losing him.  Do you suscribe to the notion that a mechanic is as important to the golf course as David did/does?


EXTRA CREDIT

7. Pat Ward-Thomas' "Elements of Greatness - A Classic 18 hole Course" names what course's first hole as the ideal opener?

BONUS


8. What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?



Eric,

Yes, you may ask me more. But Anthony has to wait.

There was a nice variety of beers available. There was Fat Tire, Arrogant Bastard IPA, and Heineken Light, which went well with a turkey and swiss on rye sandwich at lunch time. There were probably others, but I can't remember them. Maybe Mike Nuzzo can refresh my memory.

I don't agree that greens need to be rebuilt.....ever. Unless they sucked when they were first built, then it's OK. But, agronomically, the worst enemy of soil is water. Water displaces oxygen, and without oxygen, little bugs(micro-organisms, not to be confused with Anthony's issue) don't do their work to break down plant food to make it available to turf, as well as other soil chemistry issues. Irrigation is often applied to greens every night during the season. That water comes with a price, and I don't know that we understand that all that well.

The largest green I've built is actually a part of a short game practice facility I designed and built at Egypt Valley CC. It is approximately 11,000 sq. feet, has 3 separate practice bunkers of varying depths and differing levels of fairway approaches surrounding it. It's very fun and very cool.

As far as a green on the golf course, there's two different greens at the Mines GC in the 8-8500 sq. ft. range. The opportunity to build bigger greens always exists, but the cost of maintenance must be factored in.

Also at the Mines, there's a green that's in the 3500 sq. ft. range. There's not likely to be many instances where you would want to go any smaller than this.

There is no one else on a golf course maintenance staff who has a bigger effect on the look, health and playability than the mechanic. A dull, improperly adjusted mower will make even the best super look like he doesn't know what he or she is doing.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Anthony Gray

Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2009, 03:33:07 PM »


  Joe,

  Is there something that you would love to see built, anything up your sleeve?

  Why do you like Eric Smith more than me?

  Aren't threads with photos better?

  What age should kids start golf?

  Anthony


Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2009, 03:35:03 PM »
Thank you brother Joe.

In case you were wondering, the answer to #7 was St. Georges.

And Kalen already provided the answer to #8, so thank you KB!

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Tues, 12/8 - Get To Know Joe Hancock
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2009, 03:40:16 PM »
How do you build a bunker with a bulldozer?

Can you explain how a green is "built" without affecting the contours present on the land prior to building the green?

If your wife didn't pick out your clothes, would you dress like Anthony?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

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