[Anthony Gray]

 

 

 

 

  Discuss.......

[Melvyn Morrow]

Anthony

A very worthy topic on a site called GCA.com. I believe you are spot on with Allan being the first architect of the modern game of golf. He effectively started the design concept, pulling together the different phases of design, which up to the 1840 did not really exist. He visited existing courses and actually planned the course and the required modifications. Of course, it was rather basic compared to some of today’s designs but I believe he started the modern approach which would make him IMHO the first real golf course architect (although I prefer the word designer).

I am quite surprised and somewhat shocked that the other 1498 members of this site have decided so far to ignore your topic. Then you are talking about golfing designers/architects, which for the most part this site is meant to be all about. The problem maybe many prefer to discuss their favourite courses rather than talk about golf course architect. Understandable but what a pity. One of your better topics.   

Melvyn

PS Sorry to see your Mum caught some crabs on your recent visit, but boy they are big, look good enough to eat.

[tlavin]

I am quite surprised and somewhat shocked that the other 1498 members of this site have decided so far to ignore your topic. Then you are talking about golfing designers/architects, which for the most part this site is meant to be all about. The problem maybe many prefer to discuss their favourite courses rather than talk about golf course architect. Understandable but what a pity. One of your better topics.   

Melvyn

Looks like an 11th Commandment to me.

[TEPaul]

Anthony:

I've always felt that Alan Roberston should be considered the first real designer/architect on the strength of what he reputedly did in the late 1840s with what appears to be the first actual designed and man-made architecture. I've even heard that perhaps the green and road hole bunker on #17 TOC may be the first example of it. If that's true it sure is a pretty special and enduring example of golf design or architecture.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Terry

11th Commandment  - perhaps yours but not mine.

It’s a good subject for this site yet I suspect it will die as many may not know much or want to know about these guys or the history of golf. That is their choice and GCA.com is all about freedom to voice opinions on this subject.

I hope some of our learned architects/designers find time to add a thought or two. After all Allan was not just the First Golfing Professional but I believe the first real designers as well.

Melvyn 

[Tom_Doak]

Melvyn:

As with the earlier topic of whether C.B. Macdonald was the first real American architect, I am an agnostic on the whole subject of who was "first" and who was "real".

Architects always get too much credit.  Design has always been part of the game, from the first time out when someone in the group decided upon a target for everyone to play toward.  Some will distinguish "architecture" as the first time when someone actually reshaped the ground in order to achieve a specific golfing purpose, and as best I know, that would be Allan Robertson.  But that doesn't make him the original designer, and I do not think that architecture is more important than design.  In fact, quite the opposite.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

I agree, I use the word designer too.  Allan from my search put designs together One notable is at Carnoustie and he did not just add the odd hole.  His family had been involved in golf at St Andrews for some 100 years between 1750-1850 as well as making golf balls.

Melvyn

[Dan Herrmann]

The first architect was God.   He laid out St. Andrews, and many say it's still the world's best course.

Isn't it amazing the minimalism is essentially about not messing up what God's delivered.

(I'm not being religious here - I'm focusing on naturalism in GCA)

[Kalen Braley]

The first architect was God.   He laid out St. Andrews, and many say it's still the world's best course.

Isn't it amazing the minimalism is essentially about not messing up what God's delivered.

(I'm not being religious here - I'm focusing on naturalism in GCA)

Was it god or nature?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Is that a question from The Tiger Woods of GCA.com - The Cart Crasher  - Kalen where was your wife when you rolled your cart? Texting a local nightclub hostess perhaps? 

Melvyn

[Mac Plumart]

How about Colt?  He is in my mind the first architect...perhaps Robertson, Morris, and Park were designers and Colt was an architect.

[Kalen Braley]

Is that a question from The Tiger Woods of GCA.com - The Cart Crasher  - Kalen where was your wife when you rolled your cart? Texting a local nightclub hostess perhaps? 

Melvyn

Its a pity I didn't roll the cart...but it was kinda funny in retrospect.

As for Tiger?  Sure I'd switch places with him....then I could be ur own personal Satan!!   

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mac

Don’t be fooled by some in believing the early designers never moved soil. They did and in more than just one or two places. They also added turf dykes, mounds, etc., but in no way to the same extent as the modern designers/architects. The early courses took an average of 3 months to prepare prior to opening the course. The idea of designing the course AM and playing PM is an urban myth. There was a general procedure which was followed and with actually much conversation with the club, committee and members.

Let’s not forget that because these people lived 100-150 years ago does not mean they were any less intelligent than their modern counterparts. They just lacked the technology. Colt for all his ability did not appear on the scene until the end of the 19th Century and was generally the assistant to Rolland in the early days. Colts generation seems to have forgotten exactly what their predecessors had done and achieved, which was based upon low budgets, corners of land usually limited in size and quality. Colt and Co benefitted from larger course budgets as the game became more popular first in Scotland then GB&I prior to being exported worldwide. It was Colts generation who had access to the explosion of interest in the game on to the worldwide arena enjoying the improved size of the land and budgets.

He was not IMHO anywhere near being the first designer or architect. Allan was the first IMO to start the modern approach to course design, bearing in mind we are talking about the 1840-50 and the game in Scotland. There were only around 30-40 courses in existence back then.

Melvyn

PS Kalen, always knew you were a little Devil 

[Mac Plumart]

Melvyn...

I find this subject very interesting and I am in no waying trying to challenge you or say you are wrong.  I would like to ask a few questions, perhaps play devils advocate, and perhaps try to make a case for Colt...but understand it is all in search of knowledge... and it is not designed to prove a preconceived point that I have.  Does that make sense?

Here goes...

It is my understanding that Colt was the first to use blueprints and drawings.  So, he could take these architectural layouts to his office or his home, draw on them, add in things, take them away, change this or that, and think about these types of things while not actually on the course.  Wouldn't this make him the first true architect?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mac

For the record, I have no problem in others submitting their opinions or asking for information, after all is that not the purpose of the DG.

As for Colt being the first architect, we need to define what we each mean by architect or designer. As used in golfing terms, I would not dismiss Colt in any way but he was the late second or third generation architect/designer. Did he take the design stage to the next phase, yes I expect he did, but was he the first, IMHO I say no.

The mode or types of drawings are in my opinion irrelevant, nor do they define one as being a designer/architect. As I have previously mentioned there are drawings out there that show it did not just start in Colts time.

I have e-mailed you some information that may be of further interest in your search for answers.

Keep the good work up. You are a breath of fresh air on this site and show all on GCA.com how easy it is to be courteous. 

Melvyn

[TEPaul]

TomD:

I started the thread I suppose you referred to about Macdonald but the question was not if he was the first architect or the first American architect----the question was why it appears he said he was.

Actually the question of a difference and distinction between a designer and an architect is probably interesting and bit more than a little hazy. When I got involved in that Ardrossan project in Philadelphia I eventually got in touch with Coore and Crenshaw and I also had a representative for a West Coast architect come over to my place and among other things he told me the person he represented was an actual architect and that C&C were only golf course designers.

[Mac Plumart]

Melvyn...

I just read your post and your email.  Thanks...I love it.

Again, I am not really making the case for Colt as the "first" architect.  I think it was Robertson.  But I would LOVE a discussion to break out on who were the "groundbreaking/revolutionary" architects.

I had a thread earlier about who were the top ten architects.  I think ranking the architects might not be the best way to frame it, but some good points were made and some discussions broke out.

But I am really interested in who laid the groundwork for good architecture and who built on that and how did they build on it.  If we do the discussion well, we could build a solid timeline running up through C&C, Doak, Dye, etc.

Maybe this is not the thread to do that, but I would love discussing each of the "greats" or the "hidden gems" regarding the architects themselves...I think that would be a really neat exercise.

[Tom_Doak]

Mac:

You've suggested a most interesting topic and yet there are so much politics involved that I don't know how it would go.

Personally I am uncomfortable with the distinctions most people make between "designer" and "architect".  Tom P, I doubt Bill Coore would be challenged on his status now that he is a plaid-blazer-wearing ASGCA guy, but God knows what they still say about me behind closed doors!

Frankly when I talk about my golf courses I talk about "building" them rather than "designing" them, just as Pete Dye always did.  I take responsibility for that part and I think it's critical to "architecture" as I understand it.  But of course most all of the professional architects like to distance themselves from being "builders", and even my own crew of highly talented builders like to call themselves architects, as if the latter was a more honorable moniker.  To me it's the other way around.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...interesting take on the names/titles that are liked or disliked by the professionals.

You also bring up a good point about the politics affecting discussion on this topic.  I would love to do it and will certainly add my comments, if someone takes the lead.

One thing that I think is funny, is that I am living in an "ignorance is bliss" type of environment.  I know very few people who are on the site, except for the interaction I have with them on the site and because I am so new to golf I don't know of a lot of the people on the site.  You and Mike Young were two exceptions regarding people I knew of before joining the site.

However, I picked up a book today...I think it was World Golf Atlas (or something like that)...and I looked at the writers/contributors list.  It was chuck full of GCA'ers.  So, I have been talking with guru's in the golf industry without knowing who they are or what they did to achieve "guru" status.  But in the end, they get honest feedback from me and I maybe ask them questions that others wouldn't.  So it is a win-win in my book...but then again,  I don't make my living off of golf so if I burn a bridge or say something stupid, it doesn't affect me that much.

Anyway...I would love to discuss the groundbreaking architects if anyone wants to get the ball rolling.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()