[Brian Phillips]

Nigel,

The course was redesigned by P. Mackenzie Ross.  The course would have laid dormant if not for a man called Frank Hole who believed in the revival of the game as well as believing in golf and hotels togther.

He lobbyed the Government for funds to finance the rebuilding and redesign of the course.

I played it for the first time on Monday and I rate it only under Dornoch of all the links courses I have played in Britain.  I haven't played Muirfield yet and still don't understand TOC.

Here is a picture of his propsed redesign with the airfield imposed under the design.  Parts of the airfield are still there today.  The proposed design is almost exactly how the course plays today.





Brian.

[Nigel_Walton]

Yes, one can still see the runway. But Ross built the "new" course after the war. What was there before the war and who designed it? That architectural plan is fantastic.

[Mike_Cirba]

I've always been curious like Nigel Walton as to how much of Mackenzie Ross's "redesign" is original, and how much of it was reclaiming holes from the pre-WWII course.

It seems that much of the airfield was a bit inland, and it's tough to imagine that the original course wouldn't have used the oceanside holes in much the way that the present course does.

[ForkaB]

There are some great old photos in the clubhouse of various British Amateur (mens and ladies) championships, and some of the holes look very unfamiliar to what is there today, as well as being very Naccaratian (wild and wooly).  This is why I posed the original question as to what the old routing was like.  I'm pretty sure that it was significantly different to what Ross did.

[Brian Phillips]

I have read in various articles that the redesign was a total redesign and none of the holes played today are from the original routing.

Brian.

[T_MacWood]

Nigel
Cecil Hutchison designed the pre-War Turnberry. I don't know that much about the course; Darwin and Guy Campbell were high on it.

George
That article does later mention Shinnecock.

[BCrosby]

A brief follow-up on Ponte Vedra.

I pulled out some old yardage books. PV was designed by Strong in 1928, as we know.

RTJ "redesigned" the Ocean Course in 1947 (earlier than I thought) for the purpose of "reducing somewhat the severity of the original course". Confirming Tom MacW's conjecture.

PV may well have been among the hardest and best courses in the US until - irony of ironies - RTJ softened it up. (Again, paging Daniel Wexler. Mr. Wexler please.)

To repeat an earlier question, does anyone know of another Golden Age course that RTJ was hired to make easier?

Could you make the argument that RTJ's work at ANGC two years later (1949) was also for the purpose of softening up Mack's original design?

Bob

[T_MacWood]

In South Africa I remember seeing East London on TV during the SA Open a few years back and it looked spectacular. And Durban's reputation has remained very strong. What is the story with Humewood and Maccauvlei?

[Jeff_Lewis]

I know Timber Point has been the subject of a fair amount of discussion before. Was it Colt/Allison or just Allison? Does anybody have any before/after photos? How many of the original 18 holes remain?

[GeoffreyC]

Jeff

There was a recent aerial posted here not too long ago that showed some of the construction taking place. I believe we concluded that Timber Point is a course that could be reconstructed and fully restored if the county. That thread was probably within the last 6 months.  Bill Querin has some nice old photos of Timber point and a good discussion of its history in his book "Golf Courses of the MGA".  Its well worth having if its not yet in your library.

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom MacWood- Thanks for sharing!

One of the first things that jumped off the list was Lawsonia. Not so much the fact that it was there but because it still resides in almost the same location as on today's lists. #72

Thinking about PD in Kansas as being so young is odd.

The other thing that stands out is the apparent domination of the American courses. While golf my have begun across the pond it is clear that it's subsequent succesful future was greatly perpetuated by "those damn Americans".

[Nigel_Walton]

Gents, I went to several of our favourite reference books and there seem to be three photos of Timber Point from Golf Illustrated that are in all of them. Wexler's Missing Links and Quirin's America's Linksland have the same photos in them, but that duplication does nothing to diminish one's enthusiasm for what was once there. Perhaps Timber Point's resurrection is something we at GCA.com can actually bring to pass?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Perhaps Timber Point's resurrection is something we at GCA.com can actually bring to pass?

Nigel,

There have been post here before about Timber Point. The course is now 27 holes, and I don't think much is left from the original design. It is owned by Suffolk County, which is the eastern half of Long Island. I can't see a county government taking on a project like this during these economic times, especially when the majority of the golfers are probably happy with the course and its price per round. I know it happened at Bethpage, but there was a great course already there.

I played Timber Point 10+ years ago, and there are some nice holes along the water, but the 27 holes did not fit, and it was very crowded.

On a separate note, curious if anyone knows anything about the CC of Havana?

[T_MacWood]

Timber Point was designed by Alison for Colt & Alison. Here is a very interesting thread from a few months ago.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBB.cgi?board=GD1&action=display&num=1040917451&start=0

CC of Havana was designed by Ross in 1911-12. A NYer by the name of Snare developed the course. He owned a large engineering firm that was responsible for building a lot of the infrastructure in Cuba.

They played an Invitational there every year. It was a very popular destination for golfers of the day - partially due to the Prohibition. From what I've seen the course looked interesting - a very rolling site dominated by a serpantine river. The river was brought into play on several holes.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is the original thread.

[Mike Benham]

... Have a read of Tom MacWood's latest contribution to this site and see what you think ...

... Another original from Tom MacWood and GCA.com is very lucky when he chooses to display his research on this site ...

Seeing that is April Fools day I think it is a good time to make a confession -- the supposed article The World's Finest Golf Courses was a total fabrication.

With the original post in 2003 and now Tom's announcement in 2011, perhaps the statue of limitations has passed ...

[John_Conley]

So it wasn't a harmless Finch-like April Fool's prank when it came out.

[Tom MacWood]

So it wasn't a harmless Finch-like April Fool's prank when it came out.

Why do you say that?

[John_Conley]

Because I'm not familiar with May 12th being a day when you can expect a free pass for initiating a prank.

[Tom MacWood]

Because I'm not familiar with May 12th being a day when you can expect a free pass for initiating a prank.

You have to be an idiot to try a Finch like prank on April 1. I said I was inspired by Sidd Finch, I never said I posted it on April 1.

[Dan Kelly]

Because I'm not familiar with May 12th being a day when you can expect a free pass for initiating a prank.

You have to be an idiot to try a Finch like prank on April 1. I said I was inspired by Sidd Finch, I never said I posted it on April 1.

Now you're calling George Plimpton an idiot?

From the Wikipedia entry on Sidd Finch: "Sidd Finch was a fictional baseball player, the subject of the notorious article and April Fools' Day hoax "The Curious Case of Sidd Finch" written by George Plimpton and first published in the April 1, 1985 issue of Sports Illustrated."

[Rick Shefchik]

Dan, if you want your hoax to last more than a couple of hours (assuming you're not going to come clean yourself in short order so no one actually begins citing your hoax as fact), April 1 is a bad time to do it.

Long-lasting hoaxes that seep their way into others' research and reporting -- especially those hoaxes that you're prepared to defend by continuing deception -- should be sprung when the target audience is least expecting it. After all, we're a hard group to fool.

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