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Bob Trebus

AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« on: November 30, 2009, 01:52:42 PM »
With the recent discussion of North Shore and the mention of plasticine models, enclosed is an item printed in a promotional brochure for Shackamaxon in 1915. We considered this an important find because, although we knew he used the models, it was the first time any had been actually seen l. Some questioned whether Tillinghast used them. This clearly shows he did as early as 1915.
 
He wrote with regard to the development of Shackamaxon "The plans had to be prepared along the most modern lines, and the models of the putting greens proved tests of the designers ingenuity and knowledge of golf". Two color reproductions of those models are shown and specifically show the greens.
 
Later. "The above description of the Shackamaxon Country Club's course is from the pen of Mr A.W. Tillinghast, New York and Philadelphia, the well-known golf architect and journalist, who personally laid out the course and modeled to scale the putting greens. These models, two of which are reproduced on these pages, are being used in the construction work of the grounds."
 
His philosophy with regards to nature, which he wrote about in this brochure, is obviously an important archtectural tenant which he  emphasized again in his 1918 brochure Planning a Golf Course. It is also interesting to note that in those pages he uses a diagram of the final rendition of  17th at Shackamaxon which is different than the one shown in the enclosed article with two bunkers added.
If interested in a higher resolution copy send your email address to [trebus@optonline.net]


« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 03:06:04 PM by Bob Trebus »

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 02:02:13 PM »
Cool
Thank you for sharing
How accurate are they to what was built?
And what is there today?

Do you have a bigger copy on tillinghast.net?
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Dale Jackson

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Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 02:07:38 PM »
Neat stuff.  Maybe Mike is saying the same thing in a different way.  The image attached is not high enough resolution to read, can you post it in a higher resolution?
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Bob_Huntley

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Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 02:09:21 PM »
I wonder if Tillinghast and MacKenzie ever came to blows over this subject, the Good Doctor hated them.

Bob

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 02:12:45 PM »
Bob,

Phil Young posted in the North Shore thread that Tilly used them at Shawnee beginning in 1909.

Do any of them still exist somewhere?


"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 03:40:14 PM »
"I wonder if Tillinghast and MacKenzie ever came to blows over this subject, the Good Doctor hated them."


BobH:

For a number of years now I have felt that this whole plasticine model thing and the whole idea of the CBM/Raynor "template" hole GCA designing model got sort of rolled in together back then when they never should have been and ultimately I think it created a lot of confusion and misunderstanding back then as it still does today. Ironically, I think the one who may've taken some heat over this real misunderstanding may've been Macdonald when in reality he never should have been given any heat or criticism for any of it.

If you don't know what I'm getting at here I'd be glad to elucidate.

I've also wondered for quite a time now if perhaps the plasticine model thing was basically a way to explain to construction crews how to build correctly as the time plasticine models were most used, at least for on-ground construction purposes seems to be the same time or slightly before the time when architects were beginning to use comprehensive hole drawings that construction crews could actually interpret well.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 03:42:19 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2009, 04:11:58 PM »
Bob,

That's interesting.

I wonder if Shackamaxon is aware of this.

One of the problems in viewing plasticine models is the assumption that they represent what was finally put in the ground.

However, they are interesting in that they present a three dimensional representation of the architects design concept/s for a particular hole.

Other than NGLA's have any of these plasticine models survived ?

RSLivingston_III

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Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2009, 07:11:01 PM »
Bob,

Phil Young posted in the North Shore thread that Tilly used them at Shawnee beginning in 1909.

Do any of them still exist somewhere?




I too am curious if any are still known to exist.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Phil_the_Author

Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 07:31:49 PM »
Unfortunately none are to be found that I know of. What is most unfortunate in this is that the models used by Tilly were made with his own hands. Plasticene was invented in the late 1880s early 1800s and is akin to modern Play-Doh except that there different structures is the reason that Play-Doh dries out and Plasticene doesn't. In addition, itb took a talented hand to work it into a model that could be actually used for the building of golf greens and holes.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2009, 10:15:48 PM »
plasticine porters?

looking-glass ties?

tangerine tees?

marmalade mounds?

kaleidoscope karries?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Bob_Huntley

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Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2009, 12:23:47 AM »
Tom and Pat,

I posted a  letter from Alister MacKenzie  to Sam Morse complaining about his contretemps with Jo Mora sometime back in 2003/2004 that mentioned his abhorrence of plasticine models. Perhaps with some diligence you can find it, I cannot.


Bob
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 02:55:57 PM by Bob_Huntley »

Phil_the_Author

Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2009, 06:16:52 AM »
This photograph is courtesy of the Baltimore Country Club 5 Farms archives and shows how the model was used in the building of the 18th green:


Tom MacWood

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Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2009, 06:56:50 AM »
Here is an excerpt from Mackenzie's SOS. Fowler & Simpson were dedicated makers of plasticine models. In an article in 1911 on plasticine models Fowler said he was introduced to the idea by Simpson circa 1910.

Phil
You said on another thread Tilly began using plasticine in 1909 at Shawnee. Where did you find that information and was he the first?

Phil_the_Author

Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2009, 07:11:54 AM »
Tilly used Plasticene models for Shawnee. There are several articles where he mentions their use. I'll look them up and post them when I have the chance. As he designed the course in 1909 I assume that the models were made in 1909 to early 1910 at the very latest.

He was not the first as I always thought that at least CBM's use of models with NGLA was at least contemporary but more likely pre-dated Tilly's use. Where Tilly learned of using it I have no idea, but he was a talented artist who was interested in all forms of art, but it wouldn't surprise me if he learned of it during his trips to Scotland in the late 1898 or 1901.

Plasticene was invented by William Harbutt of Bathampton, in Bath, England, in 1897, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Fowler & Simpson not only were first but were quite adept at creating them.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 07:35:41 AM by Philip Young »

Tom MacWood

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Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2009, 07:34:06 AM »
Phil
I'd be very interested in those articles on Shawnee if you could point me to them.

I should have said was he the first in America. Fowler & Simpson were not the first because Mackenzie says in the excerpt above he used them at Alwoodley circa 1907.

TEPaul

Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2009, 08:33:19 AM »
As I've long suspected that article appears to confirm that plasticine models were occasionally used for construction interpretation purposes before architectural drawings used for construction purposes essentially took their place. We have always been interested in when comprehensive golf architectural drawings began and how they developed in the business and when. It seems by the teens they were becoming commonly used by the best architects.

Neil Regan

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Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2009, 09:52:13 AM »
Tom and Pat,

I posted a  letter from Alister MacKenzie  to Sam Morse complaining about his contretemps with Jo Mora sometime back in 2003/2004 that mentioned his abhorrence of plasticene models. Perhaps with some diligence you can find it, I cannot.


Bob

Bob,

 Here is the thread:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41284.0/

and here are the letters:

Posted at the request of Bob Huntley:









Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Bob_Huntley

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Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2009, 01:15:51 PM »
Neil,

Thank you for finding the letter. There is another one where MacKenzie dismisses the "Plasticine Model" movement. I'll go to my files and see if I can ressurect it.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 02:55:35 PM by Bob_Huntley »

Neil Regan

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Re: AW Tillinghast and plasticine models
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2009, 03:05:46 PM »
Bob,

  Here is the plasticene thread. Peter Galea posted the pictures for you. Unfortunately, only one of those still appears. The letters discussing plasticene do not show, but the discussion does refer to them. Perhaps Peter could re-post the pictures ?

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,4431.0/

Neil
Grass speed  <>  Green Speed