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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #775 on: May 15, 2010, 05:41:58 PM »
MY HIGHLY APPROXIMATE TIME LINE OF ROBERT WHITE'S CAREER IN GOLF FROM SOME SUSPECT INTERNET SOURCES!

Here is a brief Robert White timeline from a few different internet sources plus Cornish and Whitten.  It does say he collaborated with Ross on the first course in MB, but that was much later, in about 1927, which suggests he was open to collaboration with Raynor and others, but probably doesn't affect any accredition in my mind.  He was clearly well respected and highly thought of. I get the impression that he just liked to move around and build courses. I found nothing on his personal life, like wives or families in my brief search.

1874 –Born in St. Andrews, Scotland, and became a school teacher there.

1894 – He was one of the Scottish exiles who flocked to America at the turn of the century put an indelible stamp upon the game in America. Almost immediately, White seems to find work in teaching, and laying out golf courses, with New Salem Golf Links (NLE) opening in 1895,  suggesting he came over at their behest to take the pro/greenskeeper/designer job.  (Not confirmed)  

It would be probably stretching the truth to call him an architect at this early stage of his career, although later on he put his stamp on many fine courses.  His fee for laying out a 9 hole course was $25, and it took him a morning. After walking the property he would decide on 9 tee locations and nine green locations, and he would probably also suggest the location of a few bunkers. Also included in his fee was instruction to some local farmer (put into writing should they fail to negotiate his Scottish brogue) about mowing the greens and fairways, and some suggestions on how to dig out the bunkers. He would inform the clubs founders where they could buy mowing machines for greens and fairways, and give the names and addresses of some seed merchants who could provide the Bent grass mixes suitable for greens.

Cornish and Whitten say he emigrated from St. Andrews to the United States to study agronomy, but that appears to come later.
1896-7– Pro/greenskeeperat Myopia Country Club

+/- 1897-8 (approx) – pro greens keeper at Louisville Golf Club, (and CW lists him as adding 9 holes to the club).

+/- 1895-1901 - (approx)pro greens keeper at Cincinnati Golf Club (where CW credit him with remodeling 9 holes and adding 9 holes)

1902-1912(?) - Worked as a professional/ greens keeper at Ravisloe in Chicago.

In 1902 Robert White had helped found a society of Golf professionals in Illinois - the second association of professional golfers in the world (the British PGA was founded in 1901) - and was also appointed their president. He proved to be a fine administrator.  While in Chicago White was instrumental in two important advances in American golf - professional club making and professional green keeping.  During the winter months he started attending 'farmer’s classes' at the University of Wisconsin, and soon made himself an expert on grass and turf management. He attended 11 years in all, neary every year he was in Chicago.  With his new knowledge, and the manure from the close to hand Chicago stock yards, he was able to revitalize many local courses and he was responsible for the introduction of many courses on golf course maintenance at University Agriculture Departments.

He did enter several US Opens over the years, but never finished in the top half of the field, so he was a decent player.

1912-13 -Worked as a professional/ greens keeper at Shawnee Country Club in 1914 to grow Tillie redesign in (Phil Young). He wanted to be known as a green superintendent rather than a  golf professional because he felt that more training was required for that profession. He thought that anyone who played well could be a golf professional. White helped many young men from the British Isles find work in the United States as golf professionals and green keepers.

1914 – White goes to North Shore as pro/ greens keeper and to superintend construction of renovation under direction of Seth Raynor.

1915-6 – White leaves North Shore. The PGA has him going to  Wykagl, where it is said that R. Wannamaker suggests they form the PGA. (One account has him moing from Chicago directly to Wykagl at 1914, but it seems that he went to North Shore, after a stop in Shawnee.  Whitten says he remodeled Wykagl CC in1923.  I don’t know if he still served as pro there then, as the club website merely notes he was the "long time pro."  Perhaps he worked at WCC from 1916 until moving sourth, doing design only on the side.
 
1916-1919 - Co Founder and First President of US PGA.  He apparently starts to obtain some independent commissions, with Richmond County CC (1916) and a remodel of 6 holes at Echo Lake (NJ) in (1919) Lake Hopatcong in NJ (1918)  One source says that “self-advertisement was never his strong suit” which limited his career.

By this time he is said to have known, sponsored or been related to about 1/3 of golf professionals in the US and was instrumental in job placements.

1919-1923 – Robert White continued designing golf courses after serving as PGA President through 1919, and while never gaining the number of commissions of more famous golf course architects, White became a respected architect of golf courses and helped to design over 30 golf courses around the United States, with most in PA, CT, NJ, NY during the 1920’s.  This looks like the busiest time of his career, although as mentioned, he was probably still at WCC the entire time.

+/-1926-7 – Working closely with Ross, White designed the Ocean Forest Club – While seeing how Myrtle Beach values were enhanced by golf course development, he nurtured an extensive property portfolio that included partial ownership of a golf course.

1949 - Charter Member of ASGCA, and sits on first board of governors, by luck of drawing name out of a hat.  At age 75, probably well past his career, as CW shows last design in 1937.

1959 – Dies in Myrtle Beach. Said to have managed his finances well, like most of these early Scots, he went to his grave a relatively wealthy, and well respected.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 08:47:33 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bradley Anderson

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #776 on: May 15, 2010, 06:29:19 PM »
During his time at Ravisloe - isn't that the era where Alec Baurer designed a bunch of bunkers there? If so, White would have had a lot of experience building bunkers.

I find it interesting how much the guys of that era moved around.

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #777 on: May 15, 2010, 06:38:03 PM »
Jeff,

This is from Tilly's "Hazard" Column in the November 1913 issue of the American Golfer announcing White's hiring. He began work there in November:



Note that the construction mentioned is done and that the lay-out was "given over to him to turf."

You can find a good deal more information about this 1912-13 reconstruction by Tilly on the Tillinghast Association website in the latest issue of Tillinghast Illustrated.

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #778 on: May 15, 2010, 08:38:00 PM »
Jeff:

It seems Myopia thinks White worked for them as pro/greenkeeper in maybe 1896 and perhaps '97.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #779 on: May 15, 2010, 10:51:51 PM »
TePaul,

That could very well be. Please keep in mind this is a quickie time line. One source mentioned that he started at Myopia soon, but the Salem Links opened in 1895, so that had to be his first pro/super/design job.  Cincy and Louisville both orginally opened in about 1895 but there is no reason to think he had to be there right at the opening, since the club web sites indicate that like other courses, they moved sites, etc. , took time to incorporate after being founded (which is more likely when construction started, etc.

So, I have ammended the timeline above to reflect better approximate dates.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #780 on: May 16, 2010, 12:02:24 AM »
Jeff,

What is the source of the information that Donald Ross was involved with White at Ocean Forest in Myrtle Beach?   I had previously only hear that White was responsible.

Thanks!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #781 on: May 16, 2010, 12:20:38 AM »
http://i.pga.com/pga/images/events/2006/anniversary/pdf/April_Newsletter.pdf

The quote is in a text box about White on Page 38. I wonder if its possible that they really wrote that he worked closely with Ross at Wykagl, but read for yourself.....

While Donald Ross would be more well known in golf circles with 413 courses he designed, White also was considered one of the top architects of the day. In 1923, for example, White redesigned Ross’ original work at Wykagyl. Working closely with Ross, White later designed the Ocean Forest Club – today known as Pine Lakes International Country Club – the first golf course in Myrtle Beach, S.C., in 1927. Along with Ross, White became a founding member of the American Society of Golf Course Architects in 1946.

Another one of those latter day articles where we wonder if the author (or comma editor) has it exactly right?    Should it have read:

In 1923, for example, White redesigned Ross’ original work at Wykagyl , working closely with Ross White later designed the Ocean Forest Club – today known as Pine Lakes International Country Club – the first golf course in Myrtle Beach, S.C., in 1927.


BTW, a few other well known gca types are also in that article as founding fathers of the PGA.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 12:26:40 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #782 on: May 16, 2010, 12:25:05 AM »
Jeff,

Thanks...that's very interesting.

The case of Robert White at North Shore is very much like the situation with William Flynn at Cobb's Creek, which Joe Bausch just uncovered in recent months.

Tomorrow sometime I'll try to lay out the similarities.

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #783 on: May 16, 2010, 01:26:01 AM »
Jeff,

I think that the "facts" presented in the secondary article about White need more than a little checking. For example, in the second paragraph it states that he was the pro/greenkeeper at Ravisloe in 1914. Just above is Tilly's article stating that he began work at Shawnee in November 1913... OOPS!

In the fourth paragraph it states that White moved from Chicago to Pennsylvania in 1915... Big-time OOPS!

And just think, in about 50 years some of our progeny may be having an argument on this site (yes, it will still be around) about White's influence and work as an architect and one of them will produce that article to provide as "proof"!

« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 01:28:18 AM by Philip Young »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #784 on: May 16, 2010, 08:38:10 AM »
Phil,

No question about that. I had to adjust some dates based on known facts from elsewhere, like here.  I should go back and list my entire timelime as an estimate.  For example, I put Louisville ahead of Cincy based on their club websites, but since both clubs moved once it is quite possible that the order is reversed.  As mentioned, I put White at Wykagl from 16-23 based on his pattern of design work at his own courses, and a statement that he was the long time pro there on their website.....

As it relates to NS, I still wonder what the friction was there to cause him to leave.  Work earlier than stated on the PGA or other design work or just a personality conflict with someone at the club. The cryptic comment in the NS minutes sounds like he isn't working as hard or as well as he should, so it could be almost anything.

I would also guess that Tillie recommended him for the NS job based on his work at Shawnee?  Maybe that connection is how the false attribution to Tillie at NS got started?

Someone should really check out the Ross connection in that article re Pine Lakes, too.  As noted before, maybe it was an editors typo.

Lastly, and not particularly OT, that PGA article is glowing about the big role pros play in the daily life as clubs, suggesting that White is very typical in getting involved in all aspects.  I got the impression that the PGA could argue about the whole amateur movement in gca from that article.  Of course, they are bolstering the value of their members as any such organization would be likely to do.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #785 on: May 16, 2010, 09:45:22 AM »
Tom MacWood,

The quote you posted, which appears below, seems to attribute credit in a task specific manner.

Quote
The results secured are the product of the deep thought of Mr. Robert White, our greens expert, Mr. Seth J. Raynor, the leading Golf Architect in the United States, Mr. Charles B. MacDonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction, and the unremitting and well-considered work of our Greens Committee.”

That's one way to look at, but does it make sense that Raynor would be the architect and CBM in charge of construction? We already know White was involved in construction, so I don't think your reading is accurate. I read it differently, especially when they interject 'deep thought' into the statement. That tells me the three were collaborating on the design, and it must tell Mark, TEP, and just about everyone involved on this thread the same thing because they all agree that CBM deserves co-design credit.

By your interpretation of the above quote you supplied. you would have to give equal design credit to the green committee.
Thus, your position has to be that SR, CBM, RW and the entire committee routed and designed the golf course.

Again one must approach these things with a certain amount of logic and intelligence. It is ridiculous to believe the green committee laid the course with Raynor and White, and it is ridiculous to believe the green committee was actively involved in designing the golf course. From all the entries it is obvious they were only involved in oversight.

That's really conjecture on your part and a rejection of your own theory on co-credit based on your quote which I cited.

MY interpretation is that SR & CBM were involved in the design.
To what respective degree I don't know.

I think that Robert White's role was one centered on agronomy, not design efforts.
Can you imagine CBM accepting design imput/directions from Robert White ?
I can't.
SR and CBM were a team, so I can see a collaborative effort from them, I just can't attribute absolute percentages.
But, it's clear, North Shore retained SR as their architect.
I suspect that CBM and SR consulted on design issues.  I don't suspect that Robert White's attempt at design recommendations would be accepted by either SR, the contracted GCA or CBM.


Should CBM be given co-design credit?

Generally, I'd say NO, but, in the case of SR and CBM, both of whom were working on the project, the idea that they didn't collaborate would seem far fetched to unrealistic.

However, SR was the contracted architect, therefore, he and he alone should be the sole architect of record.



If you believe he should could you please point the specific statement or statements in the minutes that leads you that direction?



Minutes don't always reflect the entirety of the situation or project.
SR and CBM had a unique relationship which is a matter of record.
To imply that CBM was univolved in any aspect of the design is naive at best.

Are you stating that SR NEVER spoke to CBM about design issues at North Shore ?
And that nothing CBM ever said regarding features, routing and design never made it into the final product ?

By your own test, could you please point out the specific statement or statements in the minutes that leads you to believe that Robert White offered up design concepts, features and routings that were accepted by SR and incorporated into the final product ?

I don't see any evidence of it happening.

You WANT to see it happening, and I think that's a difference in our perspectives




Pat
In your previous post you said if Robert White was a functional architect he would have been given credit as a functional architect. Then you pointed to the quote that said he was the greens expert and Raynor was the leading golf architect in America. First of all do you believe Raynor was the leading golf architect in America at the time? And second if you are not going to give credit to White because of this quote saying he is greens expert, why are you giving design credit to CBM when this quote says his function is construction? You cannot have it both ways.

Yes, I can see CBM accepting design input from White, just as I can see him accepting design input from Raynor, Whigham, Low, Hutchinson, Foulis, Emmet, Travis, Adaire, Lees, Sutherland, Colt and whole host of others.

It is conjecture on my part that the green committee did not lay out the golf course and the green committee was not actively involved in designing the golf course....logical, well reasoned conjecture. However it is not conjecture on my part that green committee's primary role was oversight. That is what green committees do and the minutes back that up. By the way this entire thread, including your posts, is full of conjecture....everyone has been engaged in conjecture.

Obviously Raynor spoke to CBM, they were associates, and obviously Raynor spoke to White, they were both actively involved in the project, in fact the minutes tell us they laid out the course together.

“The results secured are the product of the deep thought of Mr. Robert White, our greens expert, Mr. Seth J. Raynor, the leading Golf Architect in the United States, Mr. Charles B. MacDonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction, and the unremitting and well-considered work of our Greens Committee.”

“I know that I am only voicing the sentiment of all our members in expressing gratification at the result accomplished, which has, at one bound, placed us in line with the golf links recognized as the best in the United States. We, of course, were greatly favored in the matter by the remarkable natural advantages offered by our land, but no results like those accomplished could have been achieved without the genius of those mainly responsible namely: Mr. Seth J. Raynor, Mr C.B. McDonald and Mr. Robert White.”

These are the only two mentions of CBM being involved at North Shore. Are these quotes what led you to believe CBM deserved some design credit?

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #786 on: May 16, 2010, 09:49:46 AM »
Jeff,

In respect to Mark Hissey's wonderful summation I wasn't planning on posting again to this thread, but I felt that something you stated needed clarification. Regarding White at Shawnee you stated, "In rereading, I had also forgotten that White was apparently at Shawnee in a similar capacity in 1913.  So, he liked pro jobs where he got involved in construction and good for him..."

That isn't accurate. Shawnee was redesigned and expanded by 500+ yards in 1912-13. Both the design and construction work was overseen by Tilly personally. White was hired AFTER all the work was done and as Tilly himself wrote, "the turf was turned over to him." White was a turf expert and there had been turf problems on the course from the first day of the original course opening in May of 1911. He did absolutely NO CONSTRUCTION WORK, whether personally or overseeing work crews, while at Shawnee.

Earlier in the thread Tom Macwood insisted that White not only oversaw construction work there but actually did a joint redesign with Tilly. He was wrong on both accounts and I both pointed it out and provided the proof. In fact, you should go back and take a look at the discussion because White's "redesign" of Ravisloe was also discussed. Interestingly, what was presented as a major project was described by White himself just a few months before he left to go to Shawnee as being minor in scope saying that the "greens had remained virtually unchanged since 1902..." So his design experience in 1915 was quite limited, especially in comparison with Raynor...


Where on this thread did I insist White oversaw construction and redesigned Shawnee?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #787 on: May 16, 2010, 09:53:42 AM »
Jeff,

This is from Tilly's "Hazard" Column in the November 1913 issue of the American Golfer announcing White's hiring. He began work there in November:



Note that the construction mentioned is done and that the lay-out was "given over to him to turf."

You can find a good deal more information about this 1912-13 reconstruction by Tilly on the Tillinghast Association website in the latest issue of Tillinghast Illustrated.

Phil
Here is an article from 12/1914. It would appear White was much more than just a turf expert when North Shore hired him.

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #788 on: May 16, 2010, 10:16:28 AM »
Tom,

I didn't state that White was simply a turf expert, nor did I say that he had NO design experience, just that he was PRIMARILY and most notably known as a greenkeeper and turf expert. I disagreed with your assertion that he was at least equal to if not more experienced than Raynor was at the time. That was why I quoted from what White himself wrote about Ravisloe and how he also titled himself as "greenkeeper" and not even as a golf professional when writing that and other articles.

As for your statement that White was invovled in both design and construction at Shawnee; it is back in the early pages of this thread which is why I also posted that same Tilly article and other information on it. If you don't remember doing so you can either believe me or look it up yourself...  ;D

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #789 on: May 16, 2010, 10:45:29 AM »
http://i.pga.com/pga/images/events/2006/anniversary/pdf/April_Newsletter.pdf

The quote is in a text box about White on Page 38. I wonder if its possible that they really wrote that he worked closely with Ross at Wykagl, but read for yourself.....

While Donald Ross would be more well known in golf circles with 413 courses he designed, White also was considered one of the top architects of the day. In 1923, for example, White redesigned Ross’ original work at Wykagyl. Working closely with Ross, White later designed the Ocean Forest Club – today known as Pine Lakes International Country Club – the first golf course in Myrtle Beach, S.C., in 1927. Along with Ross, White became a founding member of the American Society of Golf Course Architects in 1946.



Another one of those latter day articles where we wonder if the author (or comma editor) has it exactly right?    Should it have read:

In 1923, for example, White redesigned Ross’ original work at Wykagyl , working closely with Ross White later designed the Ocean Forest Club – today known as Pine Lakes International Country Club – the first golf course in Myrtle Beach, S.C., in 1927.


BTW, a few other well known gca types are also in that article as founding fathers of the PGA.

There are a number of errors in that PGA bio (including errors of omission), but for the most part the information is good. The purpose of the article was to show White's long and impressive career (which relates to NS), and IMO it did a good job in showing that.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #790 on: May 16, 2010, 10:51:20 AM »
Tom,

I didn't state that White was simply a turf expert, nor did I say that he had NO design experience, just that he was PRIMARILY and most notably known as a greenkeeper and turf expert. I disagreed with your assertion that he was at least equal to if not more experienced than Raynor was at the time. That was why I quoted from what White himself wrote about Ravisloe and how he also titled himself as "greenkeeper" and not even as a golf professional when writing that and other articles.

As for your statement that White was invovled in both design and construction at Shawnee; it is back in the early pages of this thread which is why I also posted that same Tilly article and other information on it. If you don't remember doing so you can either believe me or look it up yourself...  ;D

Phil
I think your post was a little misleading. He was more than a turf expert, which is why he was such a good hire for a club redesigning their golf course. Could you point to where specifically I insisted White redesigned Shawnee. I believe, as usual, you are confused and have mischaracterized my position.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 11:00:39 AM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #791 on: May 16, 2010, 11:55:26 AM »
Tom,

Well at least you didn't say that my comments were bizarre this time!  ;D "I believe, as usual, you are confused and have mischaracterized my position..."

I am NOT confused. I have NOT mischaracterized what you stated.

On the first page of this thread Steve Shafer stated that "White was hired by Tillinghast at Shawnee to oversee construction of the redesigned course in 1912 and became the Greenkeeper there..."

Your reply #19 on this same first page:
 
"By the way Robert White was hired by Shawnee in 1913 (the course opened in 1911) to make some changes, after he had been involved in major changes at Ravisloe with William Watson and Aleck Brauer. Are you certain Tilly was involved in the Shawnee changes in 1913?"

No Tom, I am neither confused nor did I mischaracterize what you stated.

That is why I responded on the next page correcting you and Steve. Steve for stating 1912 and you for everything you stated. By the way, I'm still waiting for you to admit you were wrong on that one...  ;)

My apologies Mark for carrying this thread when on when it should have ended. This is my last post.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 11:57:28 AM by Philip Young »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #792 on: May 16, 2010, 01:13:21 PM »
Phil
Since when is asking a question the same as insisting? Like I said you are confused. If you are going to apologize, you should apologize to me for misrepresenting my statement and question.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 01:16:41 PM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #793 on: May 16, 2010, 01:17:33 PM »
Sorry Tom (and Mark, but I must rerspond to this deflection by Tom and it WILL be my last),

You simply refuse to admit that you CLEARLY stated "By the way Robert White was hired by Shawnee in 1913 (the course opened in 1911) to make some changes..."

You weren't ASKING about what you believed White was hired to do at all. You ASKED whether TILLY was involved in 1913!

No Tom, it is quite clear what you stated and what you simply will not admit to...

Enough of this nonsense...

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #794 on: May 16, 2010, 01:39:51 PM »
If it is possible your analysis of these things is becoming increasingly bizarre.

These are documented facts:

1. Robert White was hired by Shawnee in 1913 to make some changes. You just posted the damn article.
2. Robert White was involved in the changes at Ravisloe with Watson and Brauer. This is also well documented...see the 1st page.

Those two statements of fact are followed by a question: Are you certain Tilly was involved in the changes at Shawnee in 1913?

Does that sound like I'm insisting he deserves co-design credit? From where I come from asking a question is an admission you don't know the answer, which is hardly the same as insisting something is true. By the way I'm not sure anyone answered the question.

And speaking of bizarre I think this is the third or forth time (I've lost track), on this one thread, you've told us this will be your last post. 

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #795 on: May 16, 2010, 02:08:00 PM »
Tom,

You simply cannot read what is in front of your eyes. You criticize me for using the word "insist" and yet you still refuse to admit that you both stated that White was brought to Shawnee SPECIFICALLY to "make some changes" and then refer to an article which I posted as proof of this assertion despite the fact that it says exactly the opposite.

Read it again... It states that he was hired and would start work immediately. It refers to changes to the course ALREADY MADE and then Tilly states that the course was now turned over to him to... wait... TURF! Not make changes too, but to TURF! And what did Tilly call him? The new GREENKEEPER!

He was hired to oversee the day-in and out care of the course and this included the NEW TURF GROW-IN ONLY! No changes... none at all...

That you still refuse to admit this despite the evidence CLEARLY proves that you are INSISTING...

As for his being invovled in the "changes at Ravisloe," I never said that he wasn't involved. I stated that he was not invovled with a MAJOR REDESIGN ARCHITECTURALLY of the course and I used his own words to prove it. You can look that one up as it is on the first few pages as well. It's the araticle he wrote where he, himself, titled it as GREENKEEPER at Ravisloe and stated that the greens had not been substantially changed since the work done in 1902...
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 07:09:33 AM by Philip Young »

Mike Cirba

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #796 on: May 16, 2010, 02:50:10 PM »
There may be some parallels here to the recent discovery by Joe Bausch that William Flynn was heavily involved at Cobb's Creek in the construction of the course features, and possibly having some design role.

Much like White, Flynn was in the relatively early stages of his design career, and at the time had a company called "Flynn & Peters", that among other things patented and marketed the wicker basket flagsticks (that they used at Cobb's Creek, Merion, and others), and was well-versed in construction, offered architectural serviices, and was a very good player.

We have a wealth of articles and other primary documents citing the architectural involvement of Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump, George Klauder, J. Franklin Meehan, and even some articles citing the involvement of Walter Travis late in the construction/grow-in process, but until recently, we'd never seen the name of William Flynn.

Then, Joe first found this article from April 1916, shortly before the course opened;





So, it seemed clear enough that he had a major construction role, and was responsible for the shaping of the greens and other man-made features.   Their excellence even today is testimony of his work.

But, then, Joe found an earlier article, from April 1915, right at the start of construction, and although the article doesn't mention some of the other prominent men who we know were involved with the design process, it does name William Flynn.




What's more confusing here is that we KNOW from other articles that the course was really laid out as far as the original routing back in the middle of 1914, and possibly as early as 1913.   The course was "designed" well before construction started in April 1915 because the proponents needed to get the city's approval which took an inordinate amount of time.   This is also the only article we've ever found that names Flynn as one of the designers, and the GAP meeting minutes don't mention him at all. 

Was the writer simply wrong?   That would hardly be the first time a news account was in error.  Or were the men in question in the article working out the construction details?   Is there really a clean division between design, construction, and creation, such that we can parcel out responsibitlities and attributions neatly and confidently 100 years later?

So, it's likely that much like Robert White, Flynn had some role in the design process, but it's very difficult to reconstruct from the fragments exactly what that might have been.   Did he offer advice and feedback?  

Sure, he did.   I guess the question we all wrestle with here is how much credit to give to the bit players of any project when it begins to run the risk of diluting the greater whole, or diminishing the due credit earned by those primarily responsible for the outcome.

I'm not sure I have a good answer.



« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 04:11:52 PM by Mike_Cirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #797 on: May 16, 2010, 03:36:17 PM »
Tom MacWood,

The quote you posted, which appears below, seems to attribute credit in a task specific manner.

Quote
The results secured are the product of the deep thought of Mr. Robert White, our greens expert, Mr. Seth J. Raynor, the leading Golf Architect in the United States, Mr. Charles B. MacDonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction, and the unremitting and well-considered work of our Greens Committee.”

That's one way to look at, but does it make sense that Raynor would be the architect and CBM in charge of construction? We already know White was involved in construction, so I don't think your reading is accurate. I read it differently, especially when they interject 'deep thought' into the statement. That tells me the three were collaborating on the design, and it must tell Mark, TEP, and just about everyone involved on this thread the same thing because they all agree that CBM deserves co-design credit.

By your interpretation of the above quote you supplied. you would have to give equal design credit to the green committee.
Thus, your position has to be that SR, CBM, RW and the entire committee routed and designed the golf course.

Again one must approach these things with a certain amount of logic and intelligence. It is ridiculous to believe the green committee laid the course with Raynor and White, and it is ridiculous to believe the green committee was actively involved in designing the golf course. From all the entries it is obvious they were only involved in oversight.

That's really conjecture on your part and a rejection of your own theory on co-credit based on your quote which I cited.

MY interpretation is that SR & CBM were involved in the design.
To what respective degree I don't know.

I think that Robert White's role was one centered on agronomy, not design efforts.
Can you imagine CBM accepting design imput/directions from Robert White ?
I can't.
SR and CBM were a team, so I can see a collaborative effort from them, I just can't attribute absolute percentages.
But, it's clear, North Shore retained SR as their architect.
I suspect that CBM and SR consulted on design issues.  I don't suspect that Robert White's attempt at design recommendations would be accepted by either SR, the contracted GCA or CBM.


Should CBM be given co-design credit?

Generally, I'd say NO, but, in the case of SR and CBM, both of whom were working on the project, the idea that they didn't collaborate would seem far fetched to unrealistic.

However, SR was the contracted architect, therefore, he and he alone should be the sole architect of record.



If you believe he should could you please point the specific statement or statements in the minutes that leads you that direction?



Minutes don't always reflect the entirety of the situation or project.
SR and CBM had a unique relationship which is a matter of record.
To imply that CBM was univolved in any aspect of the design is naive at best.

Are you stating that SR NEVER spoke to CBM about design issues at North Shore ?
And that nothing CBM ever said regarding features, routing and design never made it into the final product ?

By your own test, could you please point out the specific statement or statements in the minutes that leads you to believe that Robert White offered up design concepts, features and routings that were accepted by SR and incorporated into the final product ?

I don't see any evidence of it happening.

You WANT to see it happening, and I think that's a difference in our perspectives




Pat
In your previous post you said if Robert White was a functional architect he would have been given credit as a functional architect. Then you pointed to the quote that said he was the greens expert and Raynor was the leading golf architect in America. First of all do you believe Raynor was the leading golf architect in America at the time?

Whether or not I believe SR as "THE" leading architect in America is unimportant, what's important is that North Shore chose to describe him as such.
I do believe that he was one of "THE" leading architects in America at that time.


And second if you are not going to give credit to White because of this quote saying he is greens expert, why are you giving design credit to CBM when this quote says his function is construction? You cannot have it both ways.

Yes, I can, and for good reason.
CBM and SR were a team.
They were closely aligned in design, construction and life itself.

To categorize White's collaboration with Raynor in the same context as CBM's collaboration with Raynor is absurd.
Raynor and Macdonald had a very special relationship, as kindred fellows and design associates.
White was an "outsider" to both of them.


Yes, I can see CBM accepting design input from White, just as I can see him accepting design input from Raynor, Whigham, Low, Hutchinson, Foulis, Emmet, Travis, Adaire, Lees, Sutherland, Colt and whole host of others.

Tom, you're being naive or duplicitous, CBM and Raynor were incredibly close, and you know that.
Whigham was CBM's son-in-law.
Emmett and Travis were fellow club members.
White was an outsider.
CBM bounced Travis as an advisor at NGLA.
I don't see him discarding his and Raynor's design theories in favor of White's, at North Shore or anywhere else.

On this issue, you're grasping at straws, inflating White's role beyond reason.


It is conjecture on my part that the green committee did not lay out the golf course and the green committee was not actively involved in designing the golf course....logical, well reasoned conjecture. However it is not conjecture on my part that green committee's primary role was oversight. That is what green committees do and the minutes back that up. By the way this entire thread, including your posts, is full of conjecture....everyone has been engaged in conjecture.

Tom, I think your lack of experience in terms of understanding the relationship of the architect retained for a design project and the green committee is unduly influencing your judgement.

In this situation you have CBM, the father or American architecture, a titan in the golf world, and his partner, and almost equally respected architect, declared by North Shore to be America's leading architect, and you're going to tell me that the green committee oversaw their work in terms of the artistic license delegated to CBM and SR ?  ?  ?

I'll guarantee you that the members of the green committee didn't have a clue when it came to routing, feature design, placement and configuration and agronomy.

Their oversight was limited to being members of the committee, not active participants in the design efforts.
Unless you think that they actively participated in every design and construction decision, in which case you'd be as naive as one can get in these matters.

CBM and SR weren't local boys starting out in the design business, they were the icons of American golf, the leading architects in America, and CBM was a TITAN in American golf, and not one to be influenced by the whims of unknowledgeable, less capable green committement.
I haven't read the contract, but, I'd be surprised if it didn't give SR-CBM complete artistic license.


Obviously Raynor spoke to CBM, they were associates, and obviously Raynor spoke to White, they were both actively involved in the project, in fact the minutes tell us they laid out the course together.

That's your intrepretation of the minutes, not mine and certainly not others.
I find your intrepretation unreasoned and imprudent.


“The results secured are the product of the deep thought of Mr. Robert White, our greens expert, Mr. Seth J. Raynor, the leading Golf Architect in the United States, Mr. Charles B. MacDonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction, and the unremitting and well-considered work of our Greens Committee.”

I'm glad you produced that quote again.
Look at it carefully, the minutes refer to the "RESULTS", not the course, not the routing, not the holes, but the entire project.
And, what role do those minutes ASSIGN to Robert White for his role in the project., that of an AGRONOMIST, not an architect, not a contractor, but, a GREENS EXPERT, and NOTHING MORE.

You can insist that he helped, co-authored, or advised on the design and routing, but, the minutes, read with the logic of the "prudent man" rule, would nullify your position.

The minutes are crystal clear to me.
SETH RAYNOR, the man they called the "leading architect in America", designed North Shore.


“I know that I am only voicing the sentiment of all our members in expressing gratification at the result accomplished, which has, at one bound, placed us in line with the golf links recognized as the best in the United States. We, of course, were greatly favored in the matter by the remarkable natural advantages offered by our land, but no results like those accomplished could have been achieved without the genius of those mainly responsible namely: Mr. Seth J. Raynor, Mr C.B. McDonald and Mr. Robert White.”

Again, the above statement references the RESULT, a combination of design, construction and agronomy and they thank each party for their respective roles, with Robert White's role being that of the agronomist, the "GREENS EXPERT", not the architect or contractor, Raynor and Macdonald.

You're reading far too much into White's role.
He was the "Greens Expert", not the architect, and the minutes are careful and specifically point that out.
YOU are the only one interpreting it otherwise.


These are the only two mentions of CBM being involved at North Shore. Are these quotes what led you to believe CBM deserved some design credit?
If you want to ignore the depth and breadth of CBM's and SR's relationship, which you apparently do, I suppose you could theorize that CBM and SR NEVER spoke to one another about any design, feature or routing concept.

I don't happen to adhere to that theory, since I believe that I do understand the relationship between SR and CBM.
If you want to ignore and deny it, that's OK, but, that's contrary to conventional wisdom and smacks of intellectual dishonesty.


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #798 on: May 16, 2010, 06:23:24 PM »
TMac,

Now I am convinced you just like to argue.  Phil posted an article saying that Tillie did the work and turned it over at Shawnee......NS has a contract with SR but you parse some words......and then you post an accurate article showing that White had done some design work prior to NS, which my timeline and other documents also show.

So what?  To me the only thing that matters is that NS put White and Rayror under contract at the same time. One to design and one to build, based on his prior experience.  Believe if you want that White had major input.  He may have.

Other than that, your posts are aimed ONLY at yanking our chains.  Your logic tree is suspect.  We don't need you to quote the minutes one more time while ignoring other items. 

Lets just end this, shall we? I am glad to learn more about NS and I was interested enough in Robert White to look more up about him, so it has some value, but lets move on.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #799 on: May 16, 2010, 09:14:25 PM »
"Lets just end this, shall we? I am glad to learn more about NS and I was interested enough in Robert White to look more up about him, so it has some value, but lets move on."


Jeffrey:

I believe that's a good suggestion. I attempted to suggest such a thing a few days ago by stating that it seems this subject as been subjected to and submitted to peer review over a considerable amount of time and it seems "peer review" pretty much wholly disagrees with MacWood's suppositions and frankly pretty much wholly disagrees with them.

What is there left to do on here with this subject then?

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