[Jim_Kennedy]

With golfers in my group being members of NGLA and Westhampton, there was a bonding with the course that had nothing to do with me.
There was a familiarity they felt with the features and holes. -Pat Mucci

An astute observation, one that gets right to the heart of why CBM & co's. work has endured for generations. 

[Bill Brightly]

I have never played North Shore, but from Pat's description, the course is obviously a MacRaynor. It makes me wonder how a course on Long Island could go so long without this being discovered.

I agree, GREAT work by George and Steve!

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

Any luck in finding out which five (5) holes from Emmet survive today ?

Pat
I don't know which holes are Emmet - its possible some of the templates are his. I'm also not sure what features are White's. Earlier in the thread I noted the old picture of the par-3 10th at North Shore and the bunker in the picture was very un-Raynor like, and Doak agreed.

[Robert Emmons]

The par 3 10th is similar to Emmet designs at Huntington,Glen Head,St. Georges or Huntington Cresent for what it's worth...RHE,

[TEPaul]

"I'm also not sure what features are White's."


What features are Robert Whites??

It is my understanding from the recently found club records that Robert White was hired by North Shore to be the greenskeeper/construction foreman when the club hired Seth Raynor to redesign the existing Emmet course. It appears Raynor's redesign may've kept about five of Emmet's holes by why would one assume that Robert White actually designed anything at North Shore at that time? The club records say Seth Raynor was hired as the golf architect and designer, not Robert White.

Why would one conclude that Robert White designed any of the features of North Shore? He apparently oversaw the building of them for Raynor and the agronomics but that is not technically synonymous with design. That's the construction of an architect's (Raynor's) design plan and agronomics.

[Tom MacWood]

“The results secured are the product of the deep thought of Mr. Robert White, our greens expert, Mr. Seth J. Raynor, the leading Golf Architect in the United States, Mr. Charles B. MacDonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction, and the unremitting and well-considered work of our Greens Committee.”

“When we made our purchase, it was reported that our links measured about 6400 yards but we soon found out that these figures were entirely erroneous and, as a matter of fact, the actual measurement was only slightly over 5,000 yards. Even before we made our acquisition, we knew that in many respects the links were badly planned and that at some time a largely modified layout would have to be determined upon. The matter has received the careful attention of your Greens Committee, who with the aid of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, and with the active and intelligent cooperation of our professional, Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagrams in the office of the Harmonie Club and which in the opinion of experts should develop into as good a course as could be found in any part of the United States. This new course will measure about 6,400 yards, it will take in about fifteen acres of woodland and takes the fullest advantage of the natural advantages offered by the rolling ground which we own.”

“I know that I am only voicing the sentiment of all our members in expressing gratification at the result accomplished, which has, at one bound, placed us in line with the golf links recognized as the best in the United States. We, of course, were greatly favored in the matter by the remarkable natural advantages offered by our land, but no results like those accomplished could have been achieved without the genius of those mainly responsible namely: Mr. Seth J. Raynor, Mr C.B. McDonald and Mr. Robert White.”

TEP
Based on these three excerpts it sure sounds like White did more than just construct the golf course. He also remained at the club for a few years and its quite possible he tweaked it during that time. There was some mention of him remaining as a consultant even after he left his position as pro. I'm not sure if they took him up on that or not.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Those passages you produced again seem to suggest the club was saying that Robert White offered deep thought and active and intelligent cooperation in the things those passages indicate he was hired by the club to provide, namely agronomics and construction. They say nothing about him offering design services. That was only said about Seth Raynor. Perhaps you don't think agronomics and construction requires deep thought and active and intelligent cooperation.

If North Shore assigned co-design credit to White it would seem other projects should assign co-design credit to all others who were only hired to work on projects as greenkeepers and construction foremen. That is something I've never really seen done.

In my opinion, all North Shore needs to do to do justice to Robert White's contribution to the course is to simply place these passages prominently into the club's archives for all to see who are interested.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Is THIS still going on?

TMac,

Those comments actually do NOT say White had anything to do with design, IMHO, no matter how many times you present them.

They say he provided deep thought as a "greens expert" while Raynor provided "deep thought" as a gca and CBM provided "deep thought" as a leading amateur authority on golf course construction.  The second paragraph sort of lumps them together as a matter of convenience, but for my money, the notes are specifically written to credit each with his own area of expertise.

Lastly, even if White had design suggestions, and I have no doubt that he did have some constructive advice in design, there is very little chance that Seth Raynor said "Hey Whitie, go over there and design me a few holes, will ya?"  His ideas and concepts, if any, were probably presented to Raynor, discussed, and incorporated to some unknown degree in however the final design came out. 

I can not comment on whether or not his later tweaks were substantial but those could not have been addressed in this comment.

As to the picture that Tom Doak agreed did not look too Raynorish, I would say/ask this -  The green actually looks like a platform Raynor green, and the steep bank bunker/grass bunker in front of it looks the same.  The bunker in front is not very geometric and is either Raynor getting jiggy with it (maybe with White input) OR it is a left over Emmit bunker, not unlike No. 10 at Augusta and shows that the 10 was one of the five holes retained.

Does that theory make any sense?

[Tom MacWood]

I beg your pardon, but doesn't this quote indicate White was involved in the design?

“...who with the aid of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, and with the active and intelligent cooperation of our professional, Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course...”

[Bill Brightly]

T Mac,

It may help you if you think of a dogsled team. Raynor is the lead dog. You can put White and the Greens Committee anywhere you want behind him.

Next.

[Tom MacWood]

Bill
Who is the lead dog in this quote?

"The results secured are the product of the deep thought of Mr. Robert White, our greens expert, Mr. Seth J. Raynor, the leading Golf Architect in the United States, Mr. Charles B. MacDonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction[/u], and the unremitting and well-considered work of our Greens Committee."

Whoever is the lead dog, if you are going to give co-design credit to CBM shouldn't you give the same consideration to White?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom  MacW

Stop it already. The club has chosen to go with Raynor/MacDonald as discussed above. Perhaps some day, the club will do a more complete history of their own  for their website and/or their internal records. In the meantime, it's their course( or more techincally, Mr. Zucker's course) and they/he can do with it as they/he choose(s). 

As I mentioned before somewhere in this thread, according to the minutes,the Greens Committee could be added to the list of Emmett/Raynor/MacDonald/White/Doak

[Bill Brightly]

Bill
Who is the lead dog in this quote?

"The results secured are the product of the deep thought of Mr. Robert White, our greens expert, Mr. Seth J. Raynor, the leading Golf Architect in the United States, Mr. Charles B. MacDonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction[/u], and the unremitting and well-considered work of our Greens Committee."

Whoever is the lead dog, if you are going to give co-design credit to CBM shouldn't you give the same consideration to White?

That is EASY. The quote CLEARLY gives you the answer Tom! Raynor is the architect. Architect=Lead Dog. White helped, so did the Greens Committee. Their efforts are duly noted.

And when you hired Raynor, you absolutely got Macdonald in one way or another!

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You asked, "I beg your pardon, but doesn't this quote indicate White was involved in the design? '...who with the aid of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, and with the active and intelligent cooperation of our professional, Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course...'”

NO it DOESN'T. If you used the ENTIRE sentence it becomes clear that what was ACTUALLY written implies something quite different. "The matter has received the careful attention of your Greens Committee, who with the aid of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, and with the active and intelligent cooperation of our professional, Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course..."

Basic sentence structure Tom. The GREENS COMMITTEE with the AID of SETH RAYNOR and COOPERATION of Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course...

The phrase you keep quoting from over and over states that the course was laid out by the Greens Committee and Raynor ONLY... Now even you won't give design credit of any type to the GREENS COMMITTEE, yet you demand that White, who this phrase only states that he simply 'co-operated' with them you want to give FULL credit to.

Sorry Tom, but you read too much into what was written.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill
Who is the lead dog in this quote?

"The results secured are the product of the deep thought of Mr. Robert White, our greens expert, Mr. Seth J. Raynor, the leading Golf Architect in the United States, Mr. Charles B. MacDonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction[/u], and the unremitting and well-considered work of our Greens Committee."

Whoever is the lead dog, if you are going to give co-design credit to CBM shouldn't you give the same consideration to White?

Tom MacWood,

Is it possible that Robert White was a soil expert/agronomist with a different discipline that SR ?

The 10th hole is pretty much the same, tee to green today, but, the bunker is much different today.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Others have answered, with Phil Young being the best at breaking down the english.  But, to reiterate, they called out White as their greens expert, and so whatever credit he gets in that sentence, he gets as a greens expert.  As Pat suggests, that is his efforts in growing grass and knowing soils.

Just that simple, no matter how many times you try to shove it down our throats!

[Mike Cirba]

I'd kind of like to include Robert White as he designed a number of courses I really like such as Berkleigh but then I ask myself...did Mac or Raynor ever collaborate with anyone who wasn't affiliated with them, such as Emmett, Banks, and/or Barton?

[Tom MacWood]

Bill
If Raynor is the undoubted lead dog as you suggest do you object to CBM being given co-design credit?  And if Raynor is such an obvious design force why is it that CBM and White are mentioned so often and so prominently with Raynor? It appears to me this was a collaboration of the three. Am I wrong?

[Tom MacWood]

Pat
If he was just a soil expert why did the club make a point of saying he assisted Raynor is laying out the golf course?

[Tom MacWood]

I'd kind of like to include Robert White as he designed a number of courses I really like such as Berkleigh but then I ask myself...did Mac or Raynor ever collaborate with anyone who wasn't affiliated with them, such as Emmett, Banks, and/or Barton?

CBM collaborated with a number of people over the years: Whigham, Raynor, Emmet, Travis, Lees, Foulis, Adair, Wilson, and White. I'm not sure he ever collaborated with Banks or Barton, although Raynor did, as well as Barker.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill
If Raynor is the undoubted lead dog as you suggest do you object to CBM being given co-design credit?  And if Raynor is such an obvious design force why is it that CBM and White are mentioned so often and so prominently with Raynor? It appears to me this was a collaboration of the three. Am I wrong?

Given the time frame and location, it is only natural that Macdonald would have visited the site and assisted Raynor. Raynor was an unabashed adherent to Macdonald's design principles, so I have no problem with shared credit. The relationship between Macdonald and Raynor is quite unique. Macdonald was ALWAYS "there," even if he did not visit the site...

As a salesperson and former board member, THIS is what I hear when I read those quotes; the Club was interested in marketing the course and wanted to be polite to everyone who helped, inclding the Grounds Committee and Mr. White.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

You asked, "I beg your pardon, but doesn't this quote indicate White was involved in the design? '...who with the aid of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, and with the active and intelligent cooperation of our professional, Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course...'”

NO it DOESN'T. If you used the ENTIRE sentence it becomes clear that what was ACTUALLY written implies something quite different. "The matter has received the careful attention of your Greens Committee, who with the aid of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, and with the active and intelligent cooperation of our professional, Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course..."

Basic sentence structure Tom. The GREENS COMMITTEE with the AID of SETH RAYNOR and COOPERATION of Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course...

The phrase you keep quoting from over and over states that the course was laid out by the Greens Committee and Raynor ONLY... Now even you won't give design credit of any type to the GREENS COMMITTEE, yet you demand that White, who this phrase only states that he simply 'co-operated' with them you want to give FULL credit to.

Sorry Tom, but you read too much into what was written.

Is it clear to you Raynor laid out the golf course?

[Tom MacWood]

Bill
If Raynor is the undoubted lead dog as you suggest do you object to CBM being given co-design credit?  And if Raynor is such an obvious design force why is it that CBM and White are mentioned so often and so prominently with Raynor? It appears to me this was a collaboration of the three. Am I wrong?

Given the time frame and location, it is only natural that Macdonald would have visited the site and assisted Raynor. Raynor was an unabashed adherent to Macdonald's design principles, so I have no problem with shared credit.

As a salesperson and former board member, THIS is what I hear when I read those quotes; the Club was interested in marketing the course and wanted to be polite o everyone who helped, inclding the Grounds Committee and Mr. White.

If it was a case of marketing why is there is not a single mention in the press of Raynor or CBM being involved in the redesign of NS?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

You asked, "I beg your pardon, but doesn't this quote indicate White was involved in the design? '...who with the aid of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, and with the active and intelligent cooperation of our professional, Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course...'”

NO it DOESN'T. If you used the ENTIRE sentence it becomes clear that what was ACTUALLY written implies something quite different. "The matter has received the careful attention of your Greens Committee, who with the aid of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, and with the active and intelligent cooperation of our professional, Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course..."

Basic sentence structure Tom. The GREENS COMMITTEE with the AID of SETH RAYNOR and COOPERATION of Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course...

The phrase you keep quoting from over and over states that the course was laid out by the Greens Committee and Raynor ONLY... Now even you won't give design credit of any type to the GREENS COMMITTEE, yet you demand that White, who this phrase only states that he simply 'co-operated' with them you want to give FULL credit to.

Sorry Tom, but you read too much into what was written.

How long have you been researching golf architecture? Obviously the green committee was not out there routing the golf course (thats why they hired White & Raynor, and engaged CBM). The green committee was overseeing the redesign project. In all those entries is there any indication the green committee was doing anything other oversight? Reading it the other way is ridiculous.

That leaves Raynor and White in that statement as the two persons actively involved in laying out the golf course.

Why should CBM get co-design credit, but not White? Throughout the process, at the beginning and at the end, the three are mentioned as equal collaborators. Raynor is never singled out.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

C'mon now, you can't possibly think that I am attributing any part of the lay-out or design to the Greens Committee. I pointed out what the sentence you keep quoting from as PROOF of White having laid out the course actually says something quite different. You can't have it both ways. If you want to say that your interpretation of the sentence is correct, then you also CAN'T criticze it for what it actually says, and it says that "The GREENS COMMITTEE with the AID of SETH RAYNOR and COOPERATION of Mr. Robert White, have laid out a course..."

There isn't a single thing that directly states that White either laid out or designed the course. The notes clearly state that RAYNOR did. Actually, there is also nothing that states that Macdonald was involved in the lay-out or design process either. There is only a single reference to him by name and that refers to his CONSTRUCTION expertise AFTER refering to Raynor as the pre-eminent architect in America.

You are certainly free to INTERPRET a sentence or phrase as you please; but that doesn't make it correct nor does it make it a statement of fact.

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