[TEPaul]

"Hopefully the catering and membership demand will increase with latest update."


That seems to me to be something of a back-handed remark from Tom MacWood. The more I hear from that guy on here the less I appreciate the guy and his passive/aggressive MO. It is my supreme hope that others do as well.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Actually, Dr. Bill Quirin used the "looks like" test when he mentioned North Shore in his Feature Interview here in 2001 nothwithstanding his prior mini history of North Shore in his book attributing the course to Tillinghast:

http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/bill-quirin

[Jim_Kennedy]

Of course from last November until Steve Shaeffer actually went to New York we had to put up with the ususal Tom MacWood bizarro opinions about Robert White being North Shore's architect and frankly that may've been the real reason Shaeffer took the time and made the effort to go to New York's Historical Society! 

TEP,
Whats 'bizarro' is your pettiness.

[TEPaul]

Jim Kennedy:

What the real matter with this website has been in the last some years is pretty much Moriarty, MacWood and their little junior grade officer, Jim Kennedy.

It seems somehow for reasons that I'm not aware of one of them is gone now and I would say for this website to get back to what it once was and the way it should be again there are only a mere two more to go.

[TEPaul]

"Actually, Dr. Bill Quirin used the "looks like" test when he mentioned North Shore in his Feature Interview here in 2001 nothwithstanding his prior mini history of North Shore in his book attributing the course to Tillinghast:"


Steve:

Actually like a day or so after your trip to New York and the New York Historical Society when you revealed that NS was designed by Raynor and not Tillinghast, I called Bill Quirin and asked him if he knew why he attributed the course to Tillinghast in his book on the courses of the MGA. He was very cordial and friendly about it all as he always has been with me but he said he would try to check his notes or whatever or get his son to or whatever. I haven't heard from him since then but do you really blame him with what-all we do and say on here?

Nevertheless, time and info marches on and look what NS is doing now with their architectural attribution.

I would say it is one of the finest architectural and attribution investigations that has ever emanated from this website with a particular golf club, with the exception of MacWood's usual bizarro adamancy on some other bit player he thinks he's discovered and has tried to unfactually promote up to primary architectural attribuion, wouldn't you?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim Kennedy:

What the real matter with this website has been in the last some years is pretty much Moriarty, MacWood and their little junior grade officer, Jim Kennedy.

I'd say that your arrogance is much more of a factor than anything else. During your recent self-imposed absence (remember that, it was right after you imploded and started hurling curses around. I won't reprint them here but I did save them to remind myself of your irascible nature)  there were quite a few cordial exchanges between people who differed greatly yet didn't feel the need to make personal attacks on each other, something you do on a regular basis.   

It seems somehow for reasons that I'm not aware of one of them is gone now and I would say for this website to get back to what it once was and the way it should be again there are only a mere two more to go.
I would say that there is only one more to go. You'll recognize him in a few hours when you're shaving.   

[Tom MacWood]

"Our classically designed Seth Raynor and Charles B. Macdonald golf course forms the highlight of our facility......

.........Notable Golf course creators Seth Raynor and Charles B. Macdonald, known for building course that stand the test of time, designed our 6,365 yard course.  Seth Raynor and Charles B. Macdonald made their mark as outstanding course designers devoted both to the game and the preservation of natural surroundings. North Shore's course is little changed from that original design with putting greens that tend to be small, tightly bunkered, sloped and quick."


There are two things that standout about this statement. First, the fact that there is no recognition of Devereux Emmet. Emmet laid out the original course and at least five of his holes were retained in the redesign - that is 30% of the golf course. Second, although they now recognize CBM, as they should IMO, there is no mention of Robert White. All the evidence that supports CBM's involvement also supports White. I wonder if White's lack of stature and name recognition was a factor in the club's decision.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Emmett/Raynor/MacDonald/White/Doak is too unwieldy for marketing purposes. Perhaps the club will write a more detailed history for their website at a later time.

Emmett and White do not have a national "brand."

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I agree wtith Steve, considering the timing of the statement and its purpose.  It was clearly a marketing statement, to induce members and NOT an attempt at 100% accuracy in design attribution.  "New and improved" was probably as good a marketing ploy then as now, and IMHO, they probably didn't care one bit about touting their former course, or any parts of the routing that happened to be left over.

Or maybe, they knew we would exist some point in the future and were real teasers......

[Bill Brightly]

Scores after day 1. (Pat did not make the cut)

North Shore Country Club 
SC Pos. Player Club Name Today Hole Total R1 Total
  T1 Jay Blumenfeld  Mountain Ridge Country Club  73 
  T1 Randall Keleher  Griff Harris Men  73
  3 Joe Sommers  Winged Foot Golf Club 74
  4 Ron Vannelli  Metuchen G & CC  75
  T5 Bill Henry  Forsgate Country Club  76
  T5 William Dober  Higgins Golf Club  76
  T7 Tom Graham  CC of Fairfield  77
  T7 Timothy Hultquist  Winged Foot Golf Club 77
  T7 Steve Rose  Fresh Meadow CC 77
  T7 Tom Dicinti  MGA e-Club - New Jersey  77
  T7 James Graham  Winged Foot Golf Club  77
  T12 Marty Winkelman  Glen Head Country Club  78
  T12 Gerald Garber  Lake Success Golf Club  78
  T12 Scotty George  Westchester Country Club  78
  T15 Nelson Debow  Newton Country Club  79
  T15 Mark Mulvoy  Apawamis Club  79
  T15 Peter Rymer  Hamilton Farm Golf Club  79
  T15 Ned Steiner  Mountain Ridge Country Club 79
  T15 Tom Yellin  Stanwich Club 79
  T15 Bruce Berman  Willow Ridge Country Club  79
  T15 Paul Petrarca  Plainfield West 79
  T15 Bill Sherry  Dutchess G&CC  79
  T23 Lorin Wels  Edgewood Country Club  80
  T23 Douglas Vergith  St George's G & CC 80
  T23 Allan Small  Fairmount Country Club  80
  T23 Warren Cohen  Sands Point Golf Club 80
  T23 Michael Birmingham  Nassau Players Club  80
  T23 Jerry Wood  Garden City Golf Club  80
  T29 John Ervasti  Sleepy Hollow Country Club  81
  T29 Jay Green  Alpine CC 81
  T29 Jon Groveman  Sunningdale Country Club  81
  T29 Raymond Sommerstad  Port Jefferson CC  81
  T29 Robert Stuart  National Golf Links  81
  T29 William Catlett  Neshanic Valley Golf Course  81
  T29 Rick Lawrence  Ridgewood Country Club  81

 

[Tom MacWood]

Steve/Jeff
I agree, from a marketing standpoint it does make sense to simplify it like that. Unfortunately there are some who will use that statement as some kind of official statement as to proper credit. That was the perspective from which my post came.

[Chris_Blakely]

"Our classically designed Seth Raynor and Charles B. Macdonald golf course forms the highlight of our facility......

.........Notable Golf course creators Seth Raynor and Charles B. Macdonald, known for building course that stand the test of time, designed our 6,365 yard course.  Seth Raynor and Charles B. Macdonald made their mark as outstanding course designers devoted both to the game and the preservation of natural surroundings. North Shore's course is little changed from that original design with putting greens that tend to be small, tightly bunkered, sloped and quick."


There are two things that standout about this statement. First, the fact that there is no recognition of Devereux Emmet. Emmet laid out the original course and at least five of his holes were retained in the redesign - that is 30% of the golf course. Second, although they now recognize CBM, as they should IMO, there is no mention of Robert White. All the evidence that supports CBM's involvement also supports White. I wonder if White's lack of stature and name recognition was a factor in the club's decision.

Amen to that Tom – thank you for mentioning Emmet the architect of the original Glenwood course.  If it is about getting it right, I would think Emmet should be mentioned.
Chris

[TEPaul]

I'm not sure whether or not this has even been brought up on any of these threads involving either White or Raynor, but I wonder if Robert White ever did any advertizing as a golf architect in any periodicals or newspaper during his career. If so, like a number of others perhaps he included in them the golf courses he felt he could take design credit for.

It seems to me throughout his career in America, White was quite the businessman, organizer, administrator in a number of areas to do with golf. A few interesting pieces on him even imply it may've been White who was from St. Andrews who first encouraged Donald Ross to emigrate to America. White came over first in 1894 and it appears Ross followed him five years later. White may've even been the connection for Ross to the Tufts family of Boston.

Did Seth Raynor ever advertize himself as a golf architect in any periodicals or newspapers? If not perhaps he just didn't need to as it seems right out of the box he was exceedingly busy anyway.

PS:
I've recently been to The Greenbrier to look over the Old White course for a few days. It seems Frederick Sterry, the man who managed The Plaza Operating Co. was the man who tapped CBM to get involved in looking over the original Findlay course there and upgrading and rebuilding it. CBM's response initially was; "I'll send my man Raynor down there to look it over first."

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I had "one of those days"

A perfect drive and wedge on # 1 led to a 3-putt.
Hitting the wrong ball, I still can't believe it, given the circumstances, led to a double bogey from 93 yards.
A ball hit through a dogleg ended up at the base of a tree leading to an unplayable.

A practice round would have been helpful, but, I had a terrific day nonetheless.
My fellow competitors, all of whom I've known for 30 plus years all suffered similar fates, but, again, we really enjoyed the golf course and our time together.

Tom MacWood.

In playing what's a nice, tight golf course/routing, It seems like such a disconnect that anyone other than Raynor routed the golf course.

What holes that remain today, did he route/design ?

There's a neat stoneworks to the left of the 12th green.
I was told that it was the old entrance.
Is it possible that the current location differs from the original location ?

[Bill Brightly]

Met Sr Am update

Pos. Player Today Hole Total
T1 Timothy Hultquist  -2 7 +3
T1 Joe Sommers  +1 5 +3
T1 Jay Blumenfeld  +2 5 +3
4 Ron Vannelli  +1 5 +4

Gettng close!
. Player Today Hole Total
1 Jay Blumenfeld  +3 13 +4
2 Steve Rose  E 14 +5
3 Allan Small  -2 9 +6
4 Joe Sommers  +5 13 +7
5 Bill Henry  +4 13 +8
View Full Results
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

I'm still shocked by the news that this course was identified as an AWT golf course.

It's so blatantly in the style of CBM-SR-CB.

Do we know how attribution was given to AWT and more importantly, how it was perpetuated given the design of the individual features and holes ?

Tom MacWood,

Any luck in finding out which five (5) holes from Emmet survive today ?

The topography of North Shore is quite unique.

One of the fellows I played with commented that some of the holes have a similar feel to Shoreacres in Chicago, with the play over the ravines..  There are probably 4-8 holes that could be considered as playing over ravines or deep depressions.

[Bill Brightly]

Nice article about the Sr Met Am, and they give credit to Raynor and Macdonald

http://www.mgagolf.org/

[Keith OHalloran]

Pat Mucci,
I was wondering if this was the first time you played North Shore, or just the first time since this thread has been started?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

I believe that article is of recent vintage.

How did the perpetuation of the AWT myth occur ?

The course is so blatantly CBM-SR-CB's style that it's hard to believe that AWT could have had this design attributed to him for so long.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

As I understand it from the club, it's pure oral history passed down from member to member for years. The club never had its early minutes as found inThe Harmonie Club archives in its possession or the "diagram" prepared by Raynor that hung in Harmonie.

See Dr. Bill Quirin's Feature Interview here where he uses the "looks like" test even though he wrote about Tillinghast in his MGA book.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

As I understand it from the club, it's pure oral history passed down from member to member for years. The club never had its early minutes as found inThe Harmonie Club archives in its possession or the "diagram" prepared by Raynor that hung in Harmonie.

Steve,

The problem I have is the sharp contrast the architecture presents when attributed to to its alleged author, AWT.
These features and holes aren't subtle by any stretch of the imagination.
They're bold replicas reminiscent of the style of CBM-SR-CB.
And, it's not like there's just one or two examples dispersed throughout the golf course.
Hole after hole is reflective of CBM-SR-CB's style.
The greens on # 3, # 9, # 14, # 15 and # 17 are hard to ignore, as is the bunkering throughout the golf course.

See Dr. Bill Quirin's Feature Interview here where he uses the "looks like" test even though he wrote about Tillinghast in his MGA book.

I think Bill's book on "Clubs of the MGA" is a terrific book, I'd recommend it for everyone's library, but, one play of the golf course has to have the GCA fan doubting the identity of the author/designer, unless AWT was channeling CBM-SR-CB

The course looks so outrageously CBM-SR-CB that it makes me wonder why and how that myth was perpetuated, the Harmonie Club minutes not withstanding.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

I've not yet played North Shore nor have I played any Raynor or MacDonald courses. My education in those regards is lacking. I have played Forsgate(Banks) so I'm familiar with template holes and I am now reading George Bahto's book on MacDonald.

As far as AWT at North Shore, all I can say that sometimes a club is so enamored with an attribution of someone of his stature that they ignore evidence of someone else. Philmont is a prime example of the "looks like" theory( claiming Flynn but ignoring recent newspaper articles uncovered by Joe Bausch showing Park,Jr. as having designed the North there)  but North Shore never had any documentary evidence until now even though Quirin pointed out the "looks like" theory after he wrote his book. North Shore thought they could find some evidence of AWT but couldn't after I discovered their original minutes showing Raynor/MacDonald.

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,

As I understand it from the club, it's pure oral history passed down from member to member for years. The club never had its early minutes as found inThe Harmonie Club archives in its possession or the "diagram" prepared by Raynor that hung in Harmonie.

Steve,

The problem I have is the sharp contrast the architecture presents when attributed to to its alleged author, AWT.
These features and holes aren't subtle by any stretch of the imagination.
They're bold replicas reminiscent of the style of CBM-SR-CB.
And, it's not like there's just one or two examples dispersed throughout the golf course.
Hole after hole is reflective of CBM-SR-CB's style.
The greens on # 3, # 9, # 14, # 15 and # 17 are hard to ignore, as is the bunkering throughout the golf course.

See Dr. Bill Quirin's Feature Interview here where he uses the "looks like" test even though he wrote about Tillinghast in his MGA book.

I think Bill's book on "Clubs of the MGA" is a terrific book, I'd recommend it for everyone's library, but, one play of the golf course has to have the GCA fan doubting the identity of the author/designer, unless AWT was channeling CBM-SR-CB

The course looks so outrageously CBM-SR-CB that it makes me wonder why and how that myth was perpetuated, the Harmonie Club minutes not withstanding.

No wonder Pat missed the cut....instead of focusing on his game, he must have been looking at each hole and screaming: "This is a Raynor! Not a Tillinghaus! " How did your playing partners react?

[TEPaul]

"No wonder Pat missed the cut....instead of focusing on his game, he must have been looking at each hole and screaming: "This is a Raynor! Not a Tillinghaus! " How did your playing partners react?  "


BillB:

No matter which region you're in, on the top-flight SENIOR amateur tour there is a lot of odd stuff that goes on like that and so if Patrick was screaming stuff like that it's handled pretty well by the others. I mean they might like wink at each other as if to say----"another of us just went over the top into LuLu land but that's the way it goes at this age," but that's about the extent of it on the top flight senior amateur tour.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

Three of our group loved the golf course.
One liked the golf course.

The greens and surrounds did not go unnoticed.

With golfers in my group being members of NGLA and Westhampton, there was a bonding with the course that had nothing to do with me.

There was a familiarity they felt with the features and holes.

One comment was that they wished the 17th green at Westhampton was more like the 14th green at North Shore.

And, everyone went bonkers over the 3rd green, a combination redan and road hole green.
The double plateau 17th was pretty spectacular as well.

To a degree it reminded me of # 2 at The Knoll.

Steve,

Yours was a great find, one that should be appreciated by all lovers of GCA.

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