[TEPaul]

Shivas:

On your Post #400 I just couldn't agree with you more and I know perfectly well we totally agreed on this point on the phone the other day and I completely encouraged you to keep pressing and impressing this point as you did very well on Post #400.

I agree with you that some, perhaps many, don't understand this and worst of all it probably doesn't even occur to them, including MacWood, who you also singled out on Post #400. Of course he will try to deny it, as he always does deny anything that calls either him or his methods on here into question but the salient fact is practically everything he says on these kinds of threads and subjects over the years completely denies that he understands it in the slightest.

This is just part and parcel of why I have always said on here, through the years, the guy is a very good raw researcher but a virtual disaster as an historical and golf architecture history analyst!

[Tom MacWood]

I'm not very technically proficient with these things, but I will try to get somebody to post my photographs of the documents tomorrow. Hopefully they will come out clearly. They aren't terribly clear as flash photography wasn't allowed.

[TEPaul]

MikeS, Pat, Shivas, or anyone else still interested:

Tom MacWood's in-line posts #403, #404, and #405 either taken individually or together virtually proves for all to see and appreciate what a complete wasteland of historical/analytical ability he really is. And what a complete feast of platitudes he is as well.

For him, at this point, that wonderful old adage----"If you give a man enough rope he might hang himself" is truly appropriate. What I feel is so puzzling is why it took so many on here so long to figure that out about him. The only true comforting factor is that at this point and particularly on this thread they finally have figured this out. I don't think his position or his philosophy has a single supporter left on this website or elsewhere.

Am I thankful for that, at this point?

DEFINITELY!

[Tom MacWood]

It is one thing to say one cannot rely upon Steve's transcription because it may not be a totally accurate representation, its another thing to totally distort what he transcribed, which is what you did.

[TEPaul]

"It is one thing to say one cannot rely upon Steve's transcription because it may not be a totally accurate representation, its another thing to totally distort what he transcribed, which is what you did."


Tom MacWood:

Oh Shit! Did I first realize one cannot rely on Steve's transcription because it may not be a totally accurate representation, or was that Shivas who explained it well and who I agreed with after he explained it to me?

According to him you never even figured out the difference.

If I totally distorted Steve Shaeffer's transcription, then my bad, and in that case why don't we all, including you, just decide to wait for Mark Hissey's photograhic evidence of the actual documents?

Have YOU even figured out yet what the difference is? 

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike
Explain to me the difference between the minutes of a club meeting, a club history, a contemporaneous newspaper report, contemporaneous magazine report, personal letters and an autobiography. They are all written accounts, which is the most accurate and why?

If Bernie Madoff's accountant is writing all of the documents, they are all suspect. A relevant comparison since North Shore lost a number of members in the Madoff scandal. Basically I would agree with Patrick in that it depends, and a big factor is the people involved. While insiders can sometimes act like Madoff's accountant to "slant the truth", the vast majority are not. In general, I would trust reports of people that were directly involved on the property as opposed to across the ocean.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike
Its extremely unlikely Raynor had any involvement in the design process at NGLA, including the making of models.

I did not make my question clear enough. From the passage in the Mountain Lake book, do you:

1. Think the passage is incorrect and Raynor did not send models from Southampton.

2. Think Macdonald or someone else built the models and sent them down to Lake Wales.

3. Some variation of the above?

[Bill Brightly]

Bill
Thank you for sharing your research expertise. History is about searching for and documenting the truth. The husband's wishes should have no bearing, if his wife is a whore she's whore, if she's a saint she's a saint, she is what she is, end of story. And thankfully despite your quaint notions about who should document history and who should approve the documenting of history no husband, government or golf club has a stranglehold on it.

T Mac

I never claimed to be a research expert. I bring only a love of the game of golf, including all it's history and traditions, to the table. I have come  to understand that most of the history of golf course architecture is interwoven with the history of the gentlemen who formed private clubs. Perhaps I place an undo emphasis on the word PRIVATE. Damn my moral code of conduct; I blame my parents. You must feel wonderful to be free of such restraints.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Shiv,

Yeah, what you said.  In general, I think historians try to rely on direct documentation or "primary source" over secondary sources.  Club minutes are primary, newspaper accounts are secondary, and the same applies to time based documents - something written contemporaneously generally trumps something written years later from memory, etc.

Even in the Madoff example, I think its true.  A good forensic accountant, when looking at those books, could determine quite quickly that something was amiss, so they are accurate, even if they were used to mislead many people who didn't study them accurately.....

I will add, as someone who has been misquoted or just seen the important points I was trying to make completely misunderstood by some cub reporter, that I don't trust newspapers as sources at all.  Even with competent reporters, the need to shorten an account for space reasons often causes distortions.  For that matter, I think its probably more true that reporters and newspapers in general need and want an "angle" to a story far more than the insiders who are recording the minutes.  How many golf course articles have an unfair tinge of elitism, etc. because that sells papers?

As to TMacs questions, I agree they are sometimes seemingly a waste of band width. I don't know if his question on the relative value of different types of written documents was real or not, but I thought our answers would be pretty common knowledge. Maybe we need a new rule that we can only ask as may questions as we answer.  If we want to ask more, we have to answer the questions asked of us! It might save some unecessary debate and endless contention.

That said, TMac should really be a friend of all of us, given how much time he puts into researching our favorite subject.

[TEPaul]

"I will add, as someone who has been misquoted or just seen the important points I was trying to make completely misunderstood by some cub reporter, that I don't trust newspapers as sources at all.  Even with competent reporters, the need to shorten an account for space reasons often causes distortions.  For that matter, I think its probably more true that reporters and newspapers in general need and want an "angle" to a story far more than the insiders who are recording the minutes.  How many golf course articles have an unfair tinge of elitism, etc. because that sells papers?"


Jeffrey:

I'll give you a good recent example on here of the differences between what you call "primary sources" (ex. contemporaneous club board meetings and such) and "secondary sources" (ex. newspaper accounts of club activities).

In one of the old Merion threads ("Re: Merion's Timeline") that was reprised recently by Joe Bausch (it's on the second page) with a few newspaper accounts of 1910 from a local newspaper called The Chester Times, the newspaper reports list a series of recent land transfers of blocks of land to the Haverford Development Co (HDC) and then a transfer of 117 acres to the Merion Cricket Club and its Golf Association. It even mentions Horatio Gates Lloyd as one of the incorporators of the MCCGA. But the newspaper account makes it seem like MCC or MCCGA bought the 117 acres in Dec 1910 when that was not technically the case at all and they would not buy it until July 1911.

The technicalities of those transfers and the reasons for them are not evidenced in those newspaper accounts about what Lloyd and HDC and MCC and MCCGA where doing in those seven months. But all the technicalities of those land transfers and all the reasons for them are evidenced in the club board meeting minutes and their supporting documents from that very time.

With the newspaper accounts ("secondary sources") we get a partial story but with the club's documentation ("primary sources") we get the entire story which is of course completely central to know to be able to understand what we were looking for about Merion and its architects of the time.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Explain to me the difference between the minutes of a club meeting, a club history, a contemporaneous newspaper report, contemporaneous magazine report, personal letters and an autobiography. They are all written accounts, which is the most accurate and why?

Tom:

If you honestly need that answer (or the factors that can impact that answer) explained to you, then frankly, answering it is hopeless because you simply have no idea what you're doing.

And if the question was rhetorical, then you're just wasting peoples' time with nonsense like that.

So which is it?

Go ahead and answer the easy question. Which is more accurate and why?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't think you can categorically dismiss a newspaper account, nor can you accept a club's history book as "The Gospel.
Club minutes can be sanitized or omit, intentionally or unintentionally, the kind of details we seek.
Autobiographies are often self serving and not objective, so what's to be deemed the most accurate when it comes to a specific club ?

The accreditation process isn't so simple and is more likely to be very difficult, lacking a set answer for each specific case.

I don't beleive that there is a static order of accreditation.

[Mark Hissey]

I spent most of today digging throught he old records of the Harmonie Club. A fourth level sub-basement storage room. Dust and full of things that hadn't been touched for years.

I won;t tantalize you. I didn't find the routing. But I did find the scrapbook of the club from Jan 1914 to the summer of 1916. There were some really nice things in there but no record of architecture issues.

I also found the guest book for the club for that era in the hope that Raynor or Macdonald had visited the club to cut their deal. No luck there either.

I searched through all of the engineers blueprints also, The routing wasn't there either.

It was a good visit and there may still be some areas where items may be stored.

On the bright side, I did find a really nice announcement of the first tournament at the club in 1916 with a nice red feather on it. They gave it to me and that will be framed and will go in the clubhouse.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Its extremely unlikely Raynor had any involvement in the design process at NGLA, including the making of models.

I did not make my question clear enough. From the passage in the Mountain Lake book, do you:

1. Think the passage is incorrect and Raynor did not send models from Southampton.

2. Think Macdonald or someone else built the models and sent them down to Lake Wales.

3. Some variation of the above?

Yes, I think there is a strong possibility that CBM (and not Raynor) was responsible for the models being sent to Lake Wales.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Bernie Madoff? That is a pretty extreme example....one of the greatest swindlers/liars in history. When it comes to the examples I cited deliberately lying would be an extremely rare occurrence.

Regarding the British report, it is contemporaneous and evidently based on an American report. If you were able to confirm it with an American report or reports would you then say the story is accurate?

Of the examples I gave I would say club histories are the most likely to be inaccurate. Not always, some are very good, but too often they are off the mark, and here are some of the reasons. They are not contemporaneous. They are often written by people unfamiliar with golf architecture and golf architecture history. They are often, consciously or subconsciously, protecting the legend that has been told for many years (if there is a legend). There is a tendency to latch onto to the highest profile architect, while ignoring or limiting the involvement of lesser knowns or what they perceive as lesser knowns. Club histories can be a good source but I try to confirm everything, always keep an open mind and open eyes for other stuff realizing there is a good chance they don't have the story exactly right.

Would you agree Club histories, of the examples I gave, are the most dubious source?

[TEPaul]

"Mike
Bernie Madoff? That is a pretty extreme example....one of the greatest swindlers/liars in history. When it comes to the examples I cited deliberately lying would be an extremely rare occurrence."


I think that is precisely Mike Sweeney's point when it comes to such things as contemporaneous club administrative records and documentary material. His other point about Madoff is that North Shore GC lost an inordinate amount of members as a result of the Madoff fraud. Plying various club memberships was one of Madoff's greatest sources of business and clients. Apparently North Shore GC was one of them.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mark,

Keep on searching. Hopefully, the Raynor letter will be found.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I think your last post confirms what Bill McBride hinted at - you go in believing that the club got it wrong, just because some clubs have it wrong, which colors your opinion unnacceptably, or could.  I agree with Pat that there MIGHT not be a definitive order, but I wonder if you overestimate the number of bogus club histories?

I don't think anyone really knows what % of club histories have it wrong, but from personal experience I put newspaper accounts at about 33% accurate.  And where BOTH can be wrong, its usually for the same reason - they have a preconcieved notion of how much space to devote to a topic in a book or article, AND they have a preconcieved notion of how much interest their "target" reader has in details.  I also wonder just how interested either were in historical accuracy.  

Newspapers and club histories have deadlines and club minutes may have been a necessary chore.  And, as you point out, they DO gloss over the unpleasantries in the name of club unity, but I still trust them to accurately report contracts and the like because that is their primary mission, which is why I would tend to trust, but verify those first.

I am fairly certain that neither clubs or newspapers circa 1911 or so ever envisioned the internet, or gca.com geeks!  So, I appreciate all who keep digging, and will stop making digs at those who do.

[TEPaul]

"Of the examples I gave I would say club histories are the most likely to be inaccurate. Not always, some are very good, but too often they are off the mark, and here are some of the reasons. They are not contemporaneous. They are often written by people unfamiliar with golf architecture and golf architecture history. They are often, consciously or subconsciously, protecting the legend that has been told for many years (if there is a legend). There is a tendency to latch onto to the highest profile architect, while ignoring or limiting the involvement of lesser knowns or what they perceive as lesser knowns. Club histories can be a good source but I try to confirm everything, always keep an open mind and open eyes for other stuff realizing there is a good chance they don't have the story exactly right.

Would you agree Club histories, of the examples I gave, are the most dubious source?"




I would say almost every club history book I've ever seen has some kind of inaccuracies in it. The next issue of importance is if those inaccuracies are central to an accurate interpretation or presentation of the architectural history of the time a golf course was built, for instance, and an accurate interpretation and presentation of who had the most important architectural input in the project of the architectural creation of the course.


Obviously, the further in time the publication of the history book departs from the actual events in the history book the greater the danger and incident of inaccuracies becomes due to the increased accumulation of rumors, mistakenly reported facts and inaccurate source material that the history book writer uses and includes.

I find the incidence of inaccuracies is even greater in newspaper and other periodical articles on the subject as they commensurately depart in time from the actual events.

Examples of the degree of difference in the importance of various mistakes in various facts and stories in architectural or architect attribution in club history books would be Merion's and Pine Valley's latest history books that were done at approximately the same time.

Actually just figuring out if and when and how a mistake in interpretation or presentation was made is a most interesting sub-set research process. I've seen a number of them in my time and travels with this stuff. Some turn out to be very important in architectural or architect attribution and others much less so. In almost every single case I've ever seen the mistakes made are remarkably innocent and in some cases even sort of humorous.

[George_Bahto]

Mountain Lake - Fred Ruth - Raynor - models:

This is from my first text of the Mountain Lake chapter of the Raynr book (unedited, as yet by that famous Left-coast Armenian) - most of this information was gathered from their club history (there, now you club history being wrong guys - go at it)



Oliver Gould Jennings who was instrumental in hiring Seth for his Country Club of Fairfield course the year before was in some way involved in the Mountain Lake plan with Fred Ruth and it was most likely that his efforts were instrumental in convincing Raynor to come to Mountain Lake.  The connection is unclear but as we shall see his influence was felt in a number of ways with Raynor.

When first contacted, Raynor declined, attributing his decline to a heavy workload up north and that he also felt he did not have sufficient knowledge of the climate and growing conditions to handle the Mountain Lake commission properly.  .........   Note, no mention of Macdonald) ...........Fred Ruth persisted and undoubtedly with the help of Jennings, Raynor finally relented and agreed to visit to look over the property.  Fred Ruth was jubilant and pledged he would personally give Seth every possible assistance with the project.

Olmsted visited the Ruth property in late 1914 and was impressed with the character of the property, referring to Iron Mountain with its “red pie-crust top” and 300-plus foot elevation, as the highest point of land within sixty miles of the Atlantic Ocean between Key West and the Orange Mountains in New Jersey.

The project was an ambitious one that included hundreds of building lots with appropriate access roads and even a railroad station. By May 1915 the basic layout for the course and the housing plan was complete and was sent to Seth for inspection and approval with a stipulation that the completion date be in time for the 1916-1917 vacation season.  Raynor had never even visited Florida let alone built there.  Ruth and Olmstead continued to pressure Raynor asking him to visit so he could see the project first hand and better see the sub-tropic climate's growing conditions first hand.  Finally agreeing, Seth first visited another property owned by Ruth the renowned  Belleaire Hotel in Clearwater where he inspected the hotel’s two courses.  He was driven to Mountain Lake where Seth was surprised at the elevation and admired the beauty of lake “nestled against the slopes of Iron Mountain”.

With landscape designer Olmstead at his side, Raynor  walked the property, which for Florida was unique in that the property actually had hills and rolling land.  With Olmstead chattering and cajoling him with various descriptions of  views, hole locations, as well as his depicting his own forte  landscape design, Raynor became more receptive to the project and was impressed with Olmsted’s enthusiasm.  Fred Olmstead was familiar with Raynor’s previous projects and the wealthy cliental he had been building for. The project needed a designer of Raynor’s stature.  Compromises for the completion date were agreed to and the design of the golf course soon began. Topo maps and residential plans were finalized and sent to Raynor's office up north. 

“Raynor began to walk the course areas often accompanied by Olmsted” and often joined by Ruth. “As Raynor walked, the layout of the course began to materialize in his mind as he would see a fairway and green in first one place and then another in his mind’s eye.  At night he would sit down with Olmsted’s contour map and try to hook the imagined pieces together into the course he visualized”. Finally all fell into place and the course design was turned over Olmsted to be incorporated into the blueprint of the entire tract.

The crew of men with their mule teams began clearing the land and the Ruth brothers began inquiring among the golf friends for the services of a golf professional for the 1917 winter season. But it soon became obvious that completion the full 18 hole golf course ready for play by Christmas 1916 was unrealistic.

“As the models began to arrive for the first holes, Ruth had to inform Raynor that plans had changed and they  would have to finish nine holes first and then tackle the remaining nine after the first nine were ready to play”.  According to their club history, this was discouraging news for Raynor but he soon sent them a plan that would afford the completion of a nine by using holes 1 through 6 then making 16, 17 and 18 temporarily the finishing holes of the temporary nine.  This was often done to get a portion of a course playable.

This would be the first of a series of delay that would result in the first nine holes at Mountain Lake taking 5 years to complete.  It would take an additional 2 years to complete the second nine holes - a project that began in 1915 and ended (successfully) in 1921.

Raynor’s  hole models continued to arrive throughout the summer of 1915 and work continued on the course.  Work also continued on the access roads and railroad station that would eventually service the Atlantic Coast Line passenger trains.  The names of Olmsted and Raynor attracted much attention to the project and although the process was slow in the beginning, sales began to pick up and the project looked to be successful.  Because of the various delays caused by the vastness of the project, a temporary loss of interest by most Americans because of the World War I,  and a restricted cash flow, it was not until 1919 that the first nine holes at Mountain Lake was ready officially open for play.

[Mark Hissey]

Mark,

Keep on searching. Hopefully, the Raynor letter will be found.

I haven't given up hope. I did find plans for the Harmonie Club renovation on boards that were cleary there for display, so they don;t have a natural propensity to just throw this stuff out.

I want to get into their attic. We'll see if we have any luck there.

[Peter Pallotta]

Just thinking out loud. Researchers need sources. Sources provide (or can potentially provide) evidence, i.e. evidence for what happened and when and by whom. The best kind of evidence is that which comes from or is recorded by the people who actually took part in the events as they happened.  The second best kind of evidence is that which comes from or is recorded by people who did not participate in the actual events as they happened, but who were close enough to those participants (or the records they left behind) and/or those events to give us some measure of confidence that the narrative and content contained within their 'second-generation' documents/reporting has added to and not obscured or mis-stated the evidence. After that point, all other kinds of evidence are not worthy of the name. Good luck, Mark, in your ongoing search for the best kind of evidence.

Peter

[TEPaul]

"Oliver Gould Jennings who was instrumental in hiring Seth for his Country Club of Fairfield course the year before was in some way involved in the Mountain Lake plan with Fred Ruth and it was most likely that his efforts were instrumental in convincing Raynor to come to Mountain Lake.  The connection is unclear but as we shall see his influence was felt in a number of ways with Raynor."


GeorgeB:

The connection of Jennings to Mountain Lake (and Raynor to ML) will probably become somewhat clearer when we realize who Oliver Gould Jennings was. He was from Fairfield Conn. and both his father (Oliver Burr Jennings) and his father-in-law (Benjamin Brewster) were two guys who made a fortune in the California golf rush and they took their proceeds and with a few other guys that included Henry Flager got into the oil business at the beginning of the latter half of the 19th century. Eventually they all backed a guy by the name of John D. Rockefeller and they all became partners in a little oil company known as Standard Oil.

As most know Henry Flagler cashed his chips out of Standard Oil around the turn of the century and became the original developer of Florida by owning the Florida East Coast Railroad (FEC) and building the railway from North Florida (he started out by building the magnificent Ponce De Leon Hotel in St Augustine as well as a number of others along the way including The Breakers Hotel in Palm Beach) all the way to Key West and consequently basically initially owning an important swath about 400 miles long of the entire Florida East Coast itself. The last leg of his FEC railroad from Miami to Key West has been referred to as the 8th Wonder of the World. At the time that last leg from Miami to Key West was finally completed (1912) it was called "The Railroad that went out into the Ocean."

[TEPaul]

"Club histories can be a good source but I try to confirm everything, always keep an open mind and open eyes for other stuff realizing there is a good chance they don't have the story exactly right."


Tom MacWood:

You try to confirm everything? What do you mean by EVERYTHING? When you wrote that essay on George Crump did you try to confirm the accuracy of every bit of factual evidence you presented about Pine Valley in that essay?

[Tom MacWood]

Mountain Lake - Fred Ruth - Raynor - models:

This is from my first text of the Mountain Lake chapter of the Raynr book (unedited, as yet by that famous Left-coast Armenian) - most of this information was gathered from their club history (there, now you club history being wrong guys - go at it)



Oliver Gould Jennings who was instrumental in hiring Seth for his Country Club of Fairfield course the year before was in some way involved in the Mountain Lake plan with Fred Ruth and it was most likely that his efforts were instrumental in convincing Raynor to come to Mountain Lake.  The connection is unclear but as we shall see his influence was felt in a number of ways with Raynor.

When first contacted, Raynor declined, attributing his decline to a heavy workload up north and that he also felt he did not have sufficient knowledge of the climate and growing conditions to handle the Mountain Lake commission properly.  .........   Note, no mention of Macdonald) ...........Fred Ruth persisted and undoubtedly with the help of Jennings, Raynor finally relented and agreed to visit to look over the property.  Fred Ruth was jubilant and pledged he would personally give Seth every possible assistance with the project.

Olmsted visited the Ruth property in late 1914 and was impressed with the character of the property, referring to Iron Mountain with its “red pie-crust top” and 300-plus foot elevation, as the highest point of land within sixty miles of the Atlantic Ocean between Key West and the Orange Mountains in New Jersey.

The project was an ambitious one that included hundreds of building lots with appropriate access roads and even a railroad station. By May 1915 the basic layout for the course and the housing plan was complete and was sent to Seth for inspection and approval with a stipulation that the completion date be in time for the 1916-1917 vacation season.  Raynor had never even visited Florida let alone built there.  Ruth and Olmstead continued to pressure Raynor asking him to visit so he could see the project first hand and better see the sub-tropic climate's growing conditions first hand.  Finally agreeing, Seth first visited another property owned by Ruth the renowned  Belleaire Hotel in Clearwater where he inspected the hotel’s two courses.  He was driven to Mountain Lake where Seth was surprised at the elevation and admired the beauty of lake “nestled against the slopes of Iron Mountain”.

With landscape designer Olmstead at his side, Raynor  walked the property, which for Florida was unique in that the property actually had hills and rolling land.  With Olmstead chattering and cajoling him with various descriptions of  views, hole locations, as well as his depicting his own forte  landscape design, Raynor became more receptive to the project and was impressed with Olmsted’s enthusiasm.  Fred Olmstead was familiar with Raynor’s previous projects and the wealthy cliental he had been building for. The project needed a designer of Raynor’s stature.  Compromises for the completion date were agreed to and the design of the golf course soon began. Topo maps and residential plans were finalized and sent to Raynor's office up north. 

“Raynor began to walk the course areas often accompanied by Olmsted” and often joined by Ruth. “As Raynor walked, the layout of the course began to materialize in his mind as he would see a fairway and green in first one place and then another in his mind’s eye.  At night he would sit down with Olmsted’s contour map and try to hook the imagined pieces together into the course he visualized”. Finally all fell into place and the course design was turned over Olmsted to be incorporated into the blueprint of the entire tract.

The crew of men with their mule teams began clearing the land and the Ruth brothers began inquiring among the golf friends for the services of a golf professional for the 1917 winter season. But it soon became obvious that completion the full 18 hole golf course ready for play by Christmas 1916 was unrealistic.

“As the models began to arrive for the first holes, Ruth had to inform Raynor that plans had changed and they  would have to finish nine holes first and then tackle the remaining nine after the first nine were ready to play”.  According to their club history, this was discouraging news for Raynor but he soon sent them a plan that would afford the completion of a nine by using holes 1 through 6 then making 16, 17 and 18 temporarily the finishing holes of the temporary nine.  This was often done to get a portion of a course playable.

This would be the first of a series of delay that would result in the first nine holes at Mountain Lake taking 5 years to complete.  It would take an additional 2 years to complete the second nine holes - a project that began in 1915 and ended (successfully) in 1921.

Raynor’s  hole models continued to arrive throughout the summer of 1915 and work continued on the course.  Work also continued on the access roads and railroad station that would eventually service the Atlantic Coast Line passenger trains.  The names of Olmsted and Raynor attracted much attention to the project and although the process was slow in the beginning, sales began to pick up and the project looked to be successful.  Because of the various delays caused by the vastness of the project, a temporary loss of interest by most Americans because of the World War I,  and a restricted cash flow, it was not until 1919 that the first nine holes at Mountain Lake was ready officially open for play.

George
That's quite a story. What is the source or sources for that info?

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