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TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #600 on: April 08, 2010, 11:44:58 AM »
Wonderful stuff there Marco!

It essentially conforms to what Steve Shaeffer reported earlier but there are some additional details in the actual club board meeting minutes which are impressively comprehensive, in my opinion, (not unusual in my experiences for clubs with boards and principals like those kinds of men).

I think that material you reported should finally put to rest for the club the question of who their architect attribution of North Shore golf course in 1914-1915 should go to-----eg Seth Raynor!---even though I would not expect someone such as Tom MacWood to accept it as the club might. I'm quite sure he will continue to conclude somehow there are more questions than answers!  ??? ;)

I will even predict what his next question will be. It will involve what the term in your last entry "Consulting Expert" actually means, and he will therefore conclude it must mean architectural services rendered by Robert White! Perhaps that may've been the case but it doesn't actually say that, does it?

Good stuff indeed!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 11:52:41 AM by TEPaul »

Mark Hissey

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #601 on: April 08, 2010, 11:49:32 AM »
Tom and Mike. I transposed these notes last night and pasted them. I will do more tonight when I get back from our first day of planning at North Shore. I have eight more photographs to transpose.

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #602 on: April 08, 2010, 12:42:29 PM »
Mark:

I’m going to ask you a question at the end which may be a bit premature, at this point, and perhaps even a bit touchy or uncomfortable to answer now.

As you know I think this particular architect attribution investigation on North Shore GC has probably been the most successful this website as ever had on any architect attribution question of any club and course.

I say that because the question began on this website as did the investigation. And I say that because of the remarkable new material discovered as it was and where it was and by whom and given the fact that the discoverers of it did the right thing and took it to the club first and before making it public on here thereby not blind-siding the club and particularly Mr. Zucker who as we understand it was gungho on buying a Tillinghast design, and I say that because the club has agreed to make it public on here as they have through you etc, and that is a very good thing I hope other clubs can get comfortable with if the right process is followed as I believe it was with North Shore GC.

I think the whole investigation and process of it by all involved was done exactly the right way and I hope it may even set some kind of a precedent on this website for how these kinds of things should be done in the future.

So the question is given all the material produced on here to date, and given the thorough peer review process it went through on here on these threads and elsewhere, can you tell us how you think the club will now present the architect attribution of their course?

Joe Bausch

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #603 on: April 08, 2010, 01:04:15 PM »
Pat:

We went to Raynor's grave in Southampton but I don't remember if there was a DOD on his gravestone (Macdonald, Whigam and Raynor are all buried within thirty yards of one another). I believe he died very early in 1926 and that may've been why CBM thought he died in 1925. I believe he died quite suddenly and of pneumonia. I think he may've been in Palm Beach at the time. He was only 51.

As for why some of his courses may be listed as 1926 that is probably because his designs and plans for them were in the process at that time and on-going.

The NY Times archive suggests he died sometime just before January 24, 1926.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00716FD395D13738DDDAD0A94D9405B868EF1D3&scp=2&sq=%22seth+j+raynor%22+death&st=p

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #604 on: April 08, 2010, 01:07:41 PM »
Thanks Joe, I thought I remembered he died in the very beginning of 1926. That is also pretty spooky because both Crump and Wilson also died within about a week of that particular date (not year).

Patrick_Mucci

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #605 on: April 08, 2010, 01:20:44 PM »
Joe,

Thanks.

I'm still going to visit SR's gravesite to try to ascertain the exact DOD.

TEPaul,

I've been to that cemetery many times before.  I go at least once a year.
I have an annual meeting with CBM in which he tells me what he thinks of my efforts for the previous year and what bidding of his he'd like done for the upcoming year.

Sometimes, in particularly hectic years, I meet with him on a Semi-annual basis.

He told me that I was absolutely and irrefutably correct to recommend a tee back as far as possible, next to the gates on # 18, to keep championing the addition of a back tee on the raised berm on # 7, and that he couldn't be happier to know that I was suggesting a dual tee on # 13, which would allow for the replication of the approach shots into the 7th and 11th holes at TOC.

He went on to say that he was astounded that no one had previously picked up on his design intent on # 13 and that he was hoping that a tee would be ready by the time the Walker Cup is played.

He also said to say "hello" to David M and Tom Mac.

The last time I was there he told me to tell you to tell Wayno to stop pissing on his grave. ;D

Jerry Kluger

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #606 on: April 08, 2010, 02:19:18 PM »
Pat: I now realize why you seem to ignore me when we are having a conversation - you speak to dead people or those who will not disagree with you out loud.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #607 on: April 08, 2010, 03:40:21 PM »
Mark,

Thanks for transcribing your photos of the minutes. I'm looking at my notes now and would like to point out that White was not the first golf pro at North Shore. The minutes reveal that on May 16, 1914 NS hired George Coburn as the golf pro.  The $400 payment to Raynor was authorized on November 5, 1914. White was hired as the golf pro on November 12,1914 and was to begin on December 1, 1914.Raynor's plans were approved on January 26, 1915.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 10:33:47 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #608 on: April 08, 2010, 05:02:28 PM »
Jerry:

It's not just that Patrick Mucci speaks to dead people in cemetaries, he apparently thinks they talk to him. I've been explaining to this website for years how weird Mucci is but this is the first time he's admitted it himself.

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #609 on: April 08, 2010, 10:19:31 PM »
"The following represent my findings concerning attribution of the golf course from the Minutes of North Shore CC (hereinafter “the Club”) from May 13, 1914 onward:

1.   On November 5, 1914, the Club authorized the sum of $400.00 to hire Seth Raynor in an advisory capacity for possible improvement of the existing course on the property.
2.   On November 12, 1914, the Club hired Robert White, at $1200.00 per year, to begin on December 1, 1914, with an option to terminate after 6 months with 30 days notice. His duties were: To take charge of the present golf course and to superintend the building of a new one, if undertaken, and to perform such other duties as the Board may direct.
3.   On December 23, 1914, the Club noted that a contract with White, pursuant to the action of the previous meeting of the Board, had been made, that progress had been made on the plan for a new golf course, taking the sense of the Board as to the possible use of the woods at the easterly end of the club property as part of such course. An estimate for the upkeep of the course was made in the amount of $12,00.00 per year.
4.   On January 26, 1915, the Club approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course with $37,500.00 to be expended under supervision of the Greens Committee, subject to the approval of the President. Raynor was to be paid a fee of $1800.00 for carrying out this work.
5.   On March 13, 1915, at the Club’s Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own.
6.   On May 25, 1915, the Greens Committee reported to the Board that progress is being made on the course construction.
7.   On June 22, 1915, the Greens Committee reported that favorable progress has been made on the rebuilding of the course showing a considerable saving as the work so far completed as compared with the original estimates.
8.   On December 28, 1915, it was noted that golf course should be playable by Decoration Day 1916.
9.   On February 29, 1916, it was noted that a letter from Raynor was referred to the Building Committee.
10.   On March 12, 1916, at the Club’s Annual Meeting, the President, Henry Calman, noted that the links were now complete with the exception of some bunkers and traps and that the course should be opening by Decoration Day. He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee. He went on to state that although the Board appropriated $37,00.00 for the work, the work will not exceed $32,000.00.
11.   On June 27, 1916, the Greens Committee was authorized to invite newspapermen to play the course during the summer if the course was in good condition.
12.   On February 18, 1918, at a Special Meeting of the Board, the Greens Committee was authorized to engage Robert White as Consulting Expert at $50 monthly for not less than 4 visits. It was noted that this motion was carried with 4 negative votes"

Mark
I would assume you would never claim Steve invented these other entries....how did choose which entries to transcribe and which entries not to transcribe?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #610 on: April 08, 2010, 10:47:23 PM »
TMac

What do you mean by "invented?" What exactly are you insinuating?

All I posted were summaries of the mentions in the minutes concerning "attribution."  There were 168 pages of minutes plus the "100 Years - The Harmonie Club- 1852-1952" and the entire scrapbook of memorobilia from Harmonie.

I did not include,for example, all the resignations from the NS due to WWI,the cost of locker rentals and other non attribution stuff. Here's one other  example-  When White was hired as a consultant on Feb 18, 1918, Alexander Pirie was hired as the golf pro.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #611 on: April 08, 2010, 10:58:34 PM »
I'm not insinuating anything; I'm asking a question of Mark. If I gave the impression I was questioning your intent, let me say I have the utmost confidence that your intent was to find whatever the truth may be.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #612 on: April 08, 2010, 11:09:47 PM »
TMac

Then why use the word "invented?"

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #613 on: April 08, 2010, 11:19:35 PM »
Because I was struck that he chose to ignore some of the most interesting entries you gave us - some might get the impression he chose to ignore them because they were unimportant or not accurately represented. I doubt that is why he ignored them.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #614 on: April 08, 2010, 11:27:19 PM »
Mark said he would post more. Be patient.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #615 on: April 08, 2010, 11:32:20 PM »
The Green Committee was empowered to use their discretion regarding terminating the services of Mr. Robert White.

Mark
What can we read from this entry?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #616 on: April 09, 2010, 01:03:48 AM »
TMac,

I think the four no votes on retaining him as a consultant are telling.  Between the two of these items, it seems he was on thin ice and not well liked.  In most cases, I would think decorum of those days would record a postiive vote on the consulting contract, but could be wrong.

It reads to me like the let him go, perhaps because they didn't like him for vague reasons, but he didn't have any particular falling down on the job.  To allow him to save face a bit, they hired him back on as a time to time consultant.

Again, that is just how it plays out in my mind.  Speculation, yes, but you did ask for it!

Cheers.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #617 on: April 09, 2010, 06:38:31 AM »
Here is an interesting article for December 19, 1915 that mentions a number of golf courses under construction, including North Shore.

Mike Cirba

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #618 on: April 09, 2010, 07:09:10 AM »
Tom,

That's one of the pitfalls here of how things were reported back then, isn't it?   "Turning the course inside out" could mean any number of things including what we know based on the minutes is course construction.

It's similar to articles we found on Ocean City CC (now Greate Bay) that read in isolation would make it seem that William Robinson was the architect, yet other earlier articles made clear that Robinson was simply building to Willie Park's design.   I think the same could be said for Ashbourne (NLE) where for years Franklin Meehan was credited with the design when it was really Park, and possibly Kittansett is a simliar situation.

Phil_the_Author

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #619 on: April 09, 2010, 07:36:13 AM »
Hello Mark,

I, too, am enjoying the transcribed minutes that you are presenting, especially as they show that what Steve presented us with is word-for-word correct. That is why I am most interested when you will present us with the transcription of this in this controversial passage that I don't think many have really given thought to (my highlights):

On March 12, 1916, at the Club’s Annual Meeting, the President, Henry Calman, noted that the links were now complete with the exception of some bunkers and traps and that the course should be opening by Decoration Day. He said the results are the product of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert, Seth Raynor, the leading golf architect in the United States and Charles B. Macdonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee.

From this statement one can easily draw the conclusion that Raynor was the only course designer, that CBM was only involved in consulting on construction questions and that White was the turf man who was primarily responsible for the greens...

One can't speculate or state that Calman was saying anything other than what is specifically recorded...

TEPaul

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #620 on: April 09, 2010, 08:48:53 AM »
Quote from: Mark Hissey on Yesterday at 09:39:58 AM
The Green Committee was empowered to use their discretion regarding terminating the services of Mr. Robert White.


Mark
What can we read from this entry?


That's a fairly interesting question and we can probably read quite a lot about a number of things to do with North Shore club structure and administrative and operating MO.

The meaning of the word discretion is the power or right to act according to one's own judgement; freedom of judgement or choice. In this case the freedom of judgement or choice of the Green Committee in this issue of White and his future employment. The word or term "discretion" or "discretionary" is also a word and term with a technical and legal meaning and application as in "Discretionary Account" as used in the world of financial investment and brokerage (ex; Wall Street) to mean a broker or brokerage has the legal right (formally given in writing by the client) to act on investment decisions and exceutions without first informing (or getting permission from) the client. Failure to inform a client of these investment decisions and executions (particularly trades) without a formal "Discretionary Account" written approval can subject brokers and brokerages to lose of license.

The use of this term in the North Shore meeting minutes (board or committee) and supporting documentation seems logical as apparently this club (North Shore) was populated by a board and membership of some fairly big time New York business and perhaps Wall Street people.

The clubs of people like this generally have these kinds of comprehensive and detailed meeting procedures and consequent meeting minutes. It's basically an MO and habit these kinds of people take from their business lives and transpose to the administrations of their clubs.

It is interesting that apparently the board formally "empowered" (took a board vote) to allow the Green Committee to act on their own judgement in the case of White's employment----in this case rather than having to ask the board for approval of what their decision would be in the case of White.

That the board actually "empowered" the green committee to do that (use their own discretion with White) in this particular case also tells me that the administrative structure and decision making procedures of North Shore GC was probably organized heavily into a top down structure rather than an organizational structure that allows various commttees far more decision making autonomy (discretion) such as my own club is and always has been because it was originally structured that way (By-Laws) when it was formed in 1916.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 09:03:06 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #621 on: April 09, 2010, 09:04:40 AM »
Tom,

That's one of the pitfalls here of how things were reported back then, isn't it?   "Turning the course inside out" could mean any number of things including what we know based on the minutes is course construction.

It's similar to articles we found on Ocean City CC (now Greate Bay) that read in isolation would make it seem that William Robinson was the architect, yet other earlier articles made clear that Robinson was simply building to Willie Park's design.   I think the same could be said for Ashbourne (NLE) where for years Franklin Meehan was credited with the design when it was really Park, and possibly Kittansett is a simliar situation.

Is it my imagination or does seem like the pitfalls are only brought up when the information does not match the preferred story?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #622 on: April 09, 2010, 10:22:22 AM »
TMac,

Look in the mirror, bud!

We all have bias, opinions and preferred stories, don't we? ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #623 on: April 09, 2010, 10:34:15 AM »
Tom,

My point is simply that although they certainly add value, and they sometimes are the only remaining source of info, we cannot and should not use printed news accounts as our only source for a lot of reasons.

They are only a piece of the puzzle.. 

 

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: North Shore CC Long Island: Tillie - Raynor
« Reply #624 on: April 09, 2010, 10:38:25 AM »
As I and many others have said before, not everything in the world is on the internet.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

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