[Mike Sweeney]

So if as Mike has said,there is no way to verify any of this ,which is fair...why is it not a Emmet course with renovations by Raynor, etc?

It seems like the owner is doing his research in coordination with many here.

At Sleepy Hollow, Gil Hanse had Tillie/MacRaynor and the membership chose to follow the MacRaynor style course in doing a renovation, IMO for the better.

At Atlantic City, Doak made major changes and now it typically marketed as a Flynn/Doak.

At the end of the day, I think the guy who writes the next check will determine the heritage by giving marching orders to Doak of which way to go. Emmet and White sound like long shots to me. Raynor/Doak would be my guess.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Good point. If the current owner thinks he will sell more rounds as a Doak, then it will be marketed as a Doak. That might not be the same as being "credited"  as a Doak, but we can start to see why perhaps some of these old misattributions occurred.  Someone in the NS lockeroom probably thought that being a Tilly was "better" than being a Raynor or White, and so it was!

I think moving forward, given that 99% of all courses get remodeled they ought to just have distinctions such as

Original GCA :XXX
Renovation GCA: XXX (year) (and can be multiples)

[TEPaul]

"How long did it take Raynor to travel from Southampton?"

MikeS:

Back in that day it probably would've taken Raynor 2 to 2 1/2 hours to drive from Southampton to North Shore G.C.. That was obviously before the L.I.E. on which it used to take me a little over an hour (I'm a very fast driver). Raynor probably could've done it in bit less on the train. But don't forget, Seth Raynor's buddy was Charlie and Charlie lived in Roslyn L.I., the same town as NS. He could've just stayed with Charlie and probably did. Can't you just see the two of them out in Charlie's studio making plasticine models over drinks like a couple of grown up kids?

Charlie and Seth did a lot of work in that neighborhood over the years----Piping Rock (1911-13), The Links (1919), Deepdale (1924-25), The Creek (1923), Kahn Estate cse, Whitney Estate cse., Moore Estate cse, some consulting on Women's National (1924-24) etc. NS appears to be just another one of them.

Again, a special surprise prize for anyone who can tell me the name of Charlie's estate in Roslyn.  

[TEPaul]

Bill Brightly:

Your #377 is such a good post; so realistic, a man with both newspaper and direct club administration experience. I wish some on here with an interest in this stuff such as MacWood could find some way to understand better what you said and are saying.

[Bill_McBride]

Again, a special surprise prize for anyone who can tell me the name of Charlie's estate in Roslyn.  

Rosebud?

[TEPaul]

Bill:

Very interesting answer but unfortunately no special surprise prize for you today. You got the answer to Citizen Kane's last words, not the name of the Roslyn estate of Charles Blair Macdonald. 

[grandwazo]

Ballyshear....Cedarmere....Mackay?

[TEPaul]

Ballyshear was the name of CBM's estate in Southampton, not the name of his estate in Roslyn which is the town North Shore GC is in.

[grandwazo]

and the town I grew up in and then found my way back to for another 30+ years.

Not Mackay, Cedarmere or Harbor Hill?

http://www.nassaulibrary.org/bryant/Localhist/Timeline.htm

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

Very interesting answer but unfortunately no special surprise prize for you today. You got the answer to Citizen Kane's last words, not the name of the Roslyn estate of Charles Blair Macdonald. 

 

[TEPaul]

That's two strikes Billy Bob; The name of Macdonald's estate in Roslyn was not "smiley emoticon" either! But since you're a great guy and you're the only one trying to answer the question, I'll give you a verbal charades hint.

What are you reminded of when one says; "Rise like a.....?"

If you say a Doughboy, then that's three strikes and you're flat-ass OUT!

[Bill_McBride]

That's two strikes Billy Bob; The name of Macdonald's estate in Roslyn was not "smiley emoticon" either! But since you're a great guy and you're the only one trying to answer the question, I'll give you a verbal charades hint.

What are you reminded of when one says; "Rise like a.....?"

If you say a Doughboy, then that's three strikes and you're flat-ass OUT!

BZZZZZZZZZZZ.  That was actually a "winky" emoticon.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

If the routing isn't changed, is it fair to give any modern day architect design credit ?

In addition, if the par of the holes isn't changed, is it fair to give any modern day archictect design credit ?

Are modern day architects who alter/fine tune golf courses without altering the routing or par, merely equivalent to "makeup" artists for actors ?

The makeup artist may change the visual, but, not necessarily the character/play of the subject.

How much credit do they deserve ?

Mike Sweeney,

I believe that Tom Doak made substantive changes, including the composition/par of the holes along with reorienting the routing.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
Phoenix Lodge, and its actually in Westbury.

[Tom MacWood]

T Mac

My admiration for Raynor (more precisely the Macdonald-Raynor-Banks lineage) may have motivated me to BEGIN my research, but it absolutely did not AFFECT my research. Very poor choice of words by you.

What does it have to do with North Shore? I think my point was obvious to most readers here: the researcher has to be wary that he does not attempt to justify all of his hard work with a "find." Developing enough information to merely cast doubt is not a "find" worthy of publication, but rather, a possible reason to begin further investigation. Some might think "casting doubt" is a worthy objective and claim that such words will motivate others to determine the real truth. But I say no, it is sloppy work that has negative consequences.

Had someone stumbled on Red Smith's newspaper article from the 1960's they could have casted doubt on Hackensack's course designer. They would have been 100% wrong...but they would have had a newspaper article to back up their words.

This brings me to another point: I served for 6 years on a local school board and learned to be EXTREMELY cautious of newspaper reporting. The better you know a subject, the more obvious newspaper errors become. I was amazed at how even the most honest reporters would make simple mistakes, or use a wrong word because they did not understand the important subtleties of certain words. I used to think some writers used a thesaurus so as not to repeat a word...and I would scream at the wrong words...

For example, a reporter given an assignment to write a story about a new golf club may not have had a clue about the subject matter. Architect, designer, co-designer, construction manager, superintendent, and golf professional all may mean about the same thing to someone who knows nothing about building a golf course.


Lastly, I think Tom Doak explained it best: right or wrong, the "named" architect gets the credit for the course. It is foolish and impossible to attempt to divide credit between the architect and those who assisted him. Even if every green and bunker placement was the brainchild of the top assistant, the named architect approved them, and had the power to have the work re-done, so he gets his name on the card. If the lowest assistant on a crew gets drunk one night, jumps on a bulldozer, re-shapes a green and the architect happens to love it...the drunk still does not get co-designer status...

Bill
Other than Hackensack how many golf course histories have you researched?

I believe the newspaper man you are thinking of is Red Hoffman of the Newark Star-Ledger. In addition to being sports writer for 60 years he was RTJ's publicist. He is dead now, but I actually spoke to him (and Trent Jones) a couple times on the phone when I was searching for Mackenzie's lost manuscript.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
Phoenix Lodge, and its actually in Westbury."


Well, it looks like your memory is improving since I mentioned the name of his estate on here in the last few months. Westbury, Old Westbury, Brookville, Roslyn, they are all right there together in the Town of North Hempstead. I only grew up there but something tells me you're going to try to tell these people somehow you know more about it than I do or that I must have spent the night in the Holliday Inn Express or one of your usual dumb competitive remarks you've been using on here for years. 

[Bill Brightly]

T Mac

Yes, Red wrote for the Star Ledger. He was excelllent, but not infallible

I have researched about 25 MacRaynors, but only in terms of studying what was built. My files on each include new and old aerial photos, pictures, articles, etc.  The only courses that I have researched from a historical perspective are Hackensack and the Eden hole at Saucon Valley, and I wrote a series of articles for the club newsletters. I am a member at each club and the articles were intended to inform and perhaps spark a litlle interest in golf course architectual history. I would feel very uncomfortable publishing anything about a club to which I did not belong unless I had been asked or hired to do so. It's kind of like studying another man's wife: a very slippery slope unless you are a PI and the husband hired you.

[TEPaul]

Bill Brightly:

On this thread particularly I just love your posts. I think you are right on the money! To research a club's architectural history when not asked by a club is something like researching another man's wife! Indeed. In my younger and truly irresponsible unmarried years I did that a few times and all things considered I would not recommend it to others even if it was true love with at least two and I definitely did learn a whole lot but it may be true to say I am lucky to still be alive. I love that old adage when a man does not answer the ringing phone----eg "An irrate husband might be on the other end."

[TEPaul]

"This is EXACTLY why I said we need to be careful about quoting Steve's report as the actual language from the minutes. EXACTLY!!"


Shivas:

I'd say it might be fairly likely in the case of NS that we will be treated to the actual wording of those old club records. I believe that because I think Steve Shaeffer earned their trust and their respect by going to them first with what he found before putting what he found on here! It is also my sincere hope that many more on here will understand the importance of this and of doing what he did and perhaps even eventually including Tom MacWood who seems to feel that the reverse approach and process is the way to do it.

[Mike Sweeney]

Ed
Here is another excerpt discussing models from a British magazine 3/1/1907. I believe Raynor was originally hired to survey the property, and then was later brought in during construction, and the rest is history as they say. I seriously doubt he had any influence on CBM's plan to make models.

Tom Mac,

Here is the problem with all of these newspaper accounts. Here you have a guy in England talking about "the Atlantic and the two bays (Peconic and Shinnecock) are in view from the hills." Is he talking about Shinnecock Hills GC, the Shinnecock Hills of the Southampton College area or the hills of the National Golf Links property? There is no way you can see the Atlantic Ocean from National and I really don't see how you could even see Shinnecock Bay back then because you certainly can't today from my memory. Take a look at Google Earth. National is really in a bowl in some ways.

This is similar to the article that was written by a guy in Miami about Mountain Lake who quoted 1917 as the start of the club or similar. My guess is the guy had never been within 200 miles of Mountain Lake, and now we are taking him as establishing the gospel over people who were on the property?

In reference to the models, are you suggesting that CB Mac and not Raynor did the models in Southampton?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill, TEPaul, Tom MacWood, et. al.,

One of the difficulties in uncovering the "complete" architectural history of any course lies in the fact that many times a superintendent or a chairman/committee simply made changes that were not documented, and with time, were accepted as always having been part of the course, when in fact, they were amendments to the course.

I've seen that occur time and time again.

And, as the members who were present during the alteration, resign, retire or die, the changes become more obscure and attributed more to having always been part of the golf course.

Thus, it's almost always a frustrating pursuit, a search for the Holy Grail of sorts.

While Green Committee and Board minutes can be revealing, often times those minutes are sanitized or don't chronicle ad hoc changes.

Aerial photography, coupled with Green Committee/Board minutes can be invaluable, but, they're not always all encompassing when it comes to detailing alterations.

While I applaud thorough research, thorough research often doesn't uncover specific changes, who made them and why they were made, so I think you have to look at even the most successful research project as only telling 90 % to 95
% of the story on these old courses.

A modern day version of my "words of caution" might be Sebonack and Atlantic where detailed books were written to chronicle the concept, creation, construction and completion of the golf course.  Yet, as thorough as these terrific books are, they're not 100 % inclusive of all the facts.   

While chronilogical aerial photography can identify changes/alterations, attribution and motive is often far more difficult to uncover, no matter how good the research effort.

[Tom MacWood]

Bill
Thank you for sharing your research expertise. History is about searching for and documenting the truth. The husband's wishes should have no bearing, if his wife is a whore she's whore, if she's a saint she's a saint, she is what she is, end of story. And thankfully despite your quaint notions about who should document history and who should approve the documenting of history no husband, government or golf club has a stranglehold on it.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Explain to me the difference between the minutes of a club meeting, a club history, a contemporaneous newspaper report, contemporaneous magazine report, personal letters and an autobiography. They are all written accounts, which is the most accurate and why?

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Its extremely unlikely Raynor had any involvement in the design process at NGLA, including the making of models.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

That's a really difficult question and so club and article specific.

Thanks for not directing it to me.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()