Men's Golf Clubs-Sanctuary or Antiquated Sexist Institution?

[Mark Smolens]

Roger, I'm wondering what a "respectable" USGA handicap is?  In my view a "private" club is by definition permitted to discriminate with respect to those invited to join.  That said, some of my favorite people to play golf with are women and individuals with handicaps much higher than 15.  Thus, while I may not be interested in joining a club like that, I am available to play at one. . .

[Roger Wolfe]

Roger, I'm wondering what a "respectable" USGA handicap is?  In my view a "private" club is by definition permitted to discriminate with respect to those invited to join.  That said, some of my favorite people to play golf with are women and individuals with handicaps much higher than 15.  Thus, while I may not be interested in joining a club like that, I am available to play at one. . .

I remember 3/4 years ago it used to be a straightforward "15 hdcp or better."  I think the new language is a direct response to increasing their market for memberships.  Just like "men's clubs" and "walking only" the trick is to have a big enough market of people wanting to join that type of club to make them a going concern.

[Dale Jackson]

Also, what would we think of a womens' only golf club?

Personally, I have no problem with that idea.  Indeed, I would have a problem with someone who defended men-only clubs but not women-only clubs.

According to their web-site, the Ladies' Golf Club of Toronto was founded in 1929 and is the only such club n North America - http://www.ladiesgolfclub.com/.

[Tom_Doak]

I was going to answer the title question, "Both."

But since JLahrman [whoever he is] brought up the question of what would we think of a women's only golf club, I must say, why the heck not?  And therefore, by logical extension, why not a men's only club?

It would make sense to have both such animals on architectural grounds alone.  You wouldn't have to muck up the men's course trying to figure out how to make it playable from the forward tees ... you just wouldn't have any.  And by the same token, you could build a better course for women if you built it to their scale, and didn't have to worry about stretching it to 7200 yards.

I do understand the gender discrimination issues.  Neither my wife nor my former female associate thought it was cool that I have consulted for years at an all-men's club [Garden City].  And I do have daughters.  And I've known lots of very good women golfers who could get around any course (including Pine Valley) at least as well as me, and I don't see why they should be FORBIDDEN from playing those few men's clubs ... if I built a course, anyone would be welcome to try and play it.  

But I don't think I should set the rules for everyone else.

[JSlonis]

Tom,

They wouldn't be forbidden from playing at Pine Valley. 

[Chris Kane]

Perhaps to those doing the discriminating it is.

Clearly written by someone who has never been to the Western Suburbs.

Scott Warren and Mark Ferguson agreeing on something and disagreeing with me - its clearly time for me to give the game away.

[Bill_McBride]

you could build a better course for women if you built it to their scale, and didn't have to worry about stretching it to 7200 yards.

I don't know anything about the women's golf club that Marion Hollins organized back east.  Who was the architect (Raynor, hence the Cypress Point connection?)?

Are there any U.S. women-only clubs today?

Thanks for any insight, Tom.

[JSlonis]

Tom,

Even if you did build it to their scale, you'd still get complaints.  The women were the toughest group that we dealt with during our restoration efforts at Tavistock.  There were quite a few holes where it was suggested that we build some new shorter front tees and it was opposed like you can't believe.  I guess many of the women members have just become accustomed to not being able to reach a green in regulation.  Jim Nagle figured the front/women's tee markers played to an effective men's length of 8,200 yards. 

[Mike Hendren]

As Opie's buddy told Andy: "It ain't a club unless you can keep somebody out."

[Jud_T]

ok-how about this argument.  Suppose their are 2 salespeople in a given town, a man and a women, both 10 handicaps.  And also suppose that THE golf club in town that was the most exclusive, highest rated, clearly best track had a male only membership (insert your favorite here) and the male salesman was a member.  Now further suppose that the biggest potential client for said salespeople was a male former college player who was dying to play and possibly eventually join the famous club.  Is this situation not discriminatory beyond the desire of a bunch of buddies to drink some beers and hack it around with the boys?  

[Roger Wolfe]

Got it.

[JLahrman]

ok-how about this argument.  Suppose their are 2 salespeople in a given town, a man and a women, both 10 handicaps.  And also suppose that THE golf club in town that was the most exclusive, highest rated, clearly best track had a male only membership (insert your favorite here) and the male salesman was a member.  Now further suppose that the biggest potential client for said salespeople was a former college player who was dying to play and possibly eventually join the famous club.  Is this situation not discriminatory beyond the desire of a bunch of buddies to drink some beers and hack it around with the boys?  

The real loser here would be a salesman who doesn't play golf.

I've never bought this line of thinking at all.  I don't disagree that a golf course can be a good place for business networking.  But in reality, any social club or situation can be a place for business networking.  And if that is true and the loss of a business opportunity is the issue, then no private club should be able to turn anyone away.

[Jud_T]

the client's a man....

[Kirk Gill]

Jud is just  making the same point that some critics of men-only clubs have made, that a golf club can be a place where business is transacted, and thus members of a men-only club may have access to business transactions to which women are excluded. The notion is that the golf club is an extension of the board room, from which women were likewise long-excluded.

I'm not a person in a position to know to what degree this is a legitimate criticism, but have heard it on a number of occasions.

[Jud_T]

I'm not even sure how I feel on the issue, I'm just playing devil's advocate.  If it's a non-issue then why do some firms go so far as to not allow their employees to take clients to these clubs? Is it purely political correctness?

[Jud_T]

By the way, best answer in all this seriousness is Mark's!   

[David_Elvins]

ok-how about this argument.  Suppose their are 2 salespeople in a given town, a man and a women, both 10 handicaps.  And also suppose that THE golf club in town that was the most exclusive, highest rated, clearly best track had a male only membership (insert your favorite here) and the male salesman was a member.  Now further suppose that the biggest potential client for said salespeople was a male former college player who was dying to play and possibly eventually join the famous club.  Is this situation not discriminatory beyond the desire of a bunch of buddies to drink some beers and hack it around with the boys?  

Depends if they are lingerie salesmen or not.  

[Bill_McBride]

Jud is just  making the same point that some critics of men-only clubs have made, that a golf club can be a place where business is transacted, and thus members of a men-only club may have access to business transactions to which women are excluded. The notion is that the golf club is an extension of the board room, from which women were likewise long-excluded.

I'm not a person in a position to know to what degree this is a legitimate criticism, but have heard it on a number of occasions.

Many private clubs, including golf clubs, have strict rules against business discussions in club facilities.  This is to protect tax-exempt status as I understand it.  The rules include such language as no briefcases!  Also no cell phones anywhere on the property, although there are other reasons for that rule!

[Jud_T]

??

[Dale Jackson]

Jud, to assist in your ruminations remember to ask yourself, What Would Al Czervick Do?

[Jud_T]

Or Allison Czervick in this case! 

[Dale Jackson]

 

[C. Squier]

I just don't get the argument against such clubs....there are more golf courses on the planet than one can ever play, only a couple dozen are exclusionary by sex.  My wife couldn't care less either, she doesn't come to Wolf Run (though things have changed since the article mentioned was written) when I head down for a visit. 

I will say that I probably wouldn't be brave enough to have it as my home club though, I'm not a caveman 

[Mark_F]

Perhaps to those doing the discriminating it is.

Clearly written by someone who has never been to the Western Suburbs.

Scott Warren and Mark Ferguson agreeing on something and disagreeing with me - its clearly time for me to give the game away.

Don't worry Chris, I've been in psychotherapy all afternoon dealing with it myself. 

[Mike Wagner]

Jud,

Your "salesperson" scenario is a good one.  My answer:  the woman SHOULD use this to her advantage.  The real answer is she now has an entire day to find new prospects and further her sales, while the guy takes the prospect out golfing and may or may not get the sale.  She should win.  I gave up client golf a long time ago as I found (as fun as it can be), is really a waste of time.  Yeah, it closes a deal once in a while, but there's way more people out there that don't play golf you can do business with (who will also take up less time)....