Men's Golf Clubs-Sanctuary or Antiquated Sexist Institution?

[Jud_T]

I'm sure this has been debated on here at some point, but I'm genuinely torn on this subject and wonder what people's current thinking is with regards to men-only golf clubs.  I think a legitimate case can be made on both sides of this argument. On the one hand, I'm all for everyone's legal rights to do what they want and not have the government interfere.  Furthermore, there is certainly something to be said for the culture of a guy's club, which cannot be replicated in a co-ed institution.  Additionally, there may be some economic justification in not having fancy dining and locker room facilities for the handful of ladies that might pony up to join a golf only club.  However, as the golf club is the perfect adjunct to a business relationship, is it not discriminating against women for them to not have access to some of our finest golf courses?  But the real question is: Would you join a men's club? Would your spouse care? What if it's a second or third club? Not sure? What if you got the nod from Augusta or Pine Valley? 

[Brent Hutto]

Here's a suggestion in all seriousness, Jud.

If you're comfortable in a men's-only situation and get invited to join one, do so.

If you're not comfortable with it then don't join.

That way everything sorts itself out quite nicely. The men's-only clubs will be filled with men who want to belong to men's-only clubs and the rest of us will just stick to the other 99% of clubs out there. It really, truly is that simple.

Worrying about what clubs other people choose to belong to is a fool's errand. It is quite literally none of your business so why get all worked up over it?

[Jud_T]

Brent-I agree with you. But I legitimately don't know MY position on this....

[Kalen Braley]

Jud,

As in all things in life....the truth or reality probably lies somwhere in the middle.

I'm sure some mens' only clubs are sexist as can be and many others are just a group of guys having fun and its not even occuring to them that there are no gals around.

I wouldn't have any issue joining a mens club, just as long as it was fun would be my only criteria for doing so.

[PCCraig]

Jud-

They are neither a "sanctuary" or "antiquated sexist institution." Rather they are just a place to go play golf, and most times they come with a lot less of the hoopla that surrounds the usual country club (pool, tennis, food). The bottom line is if you enjoy the golf course and the men that play it on a daily basis join, if not don't.

BTW- Augusta allows women to play the course, they just aren't allowed to be a member. Which is a different scenario than many of the all-men clubs I can think of.

I know the three (four?) all-mens clubs in Chicago and if you PM me I can give you a realistic run down of each.

[Jud_T]

Pat-

Thanx.  I think I've played most of 'em.  My favorites-Black Sheep-great strategic track and Bob'o'link-also a good track and a great club atmosphere.  The ones I was less excited about-Butler-good test for the very good player but no fun for the rest of us, and what's the point of a stuffy men's club? and Old Elm- cool old club with great greens, but probably not much of a challenge for the better player...

[dsilk]

interesting question.... i agree with Pat's prior post- I am a national member at one of the men- only clubs in Chicago and it is anything but wild. As a member of another (coed) club down south, I am certain that there is a lot more testosterone flowing there than at the Chi- town club.  As far as a sexist culture, I have noticed very little at the men only club as compared to other club(s)

But I invite you come on over for the friday night tom- tom banging/ chest- pounding bonfire, its awesome.

[Dale Jackson]

Jud, an interesting question.  I have been invited to join such a club in the UK and have given it some thought.  In the end I concluded that in some situations I have no problem with men only clubs, and in others I am not interested.  Let me explain.

I believe I have the right to associate with whomever I wish.  And if some of those associations are through a club that will allow only males as members, that is fine.

However, I personally have no interest in associating with members (or belonging to a club) that is male only and flaunts that attitude.  Some clubs, primarily in the US it seems to me, are male only and are proud to promote exclusionary membership and guest policies.  The culture of the club revels in keeping women out of membership and away from it facilities.  

Other male only clubs, primarily in the UK, have a different culture.  There women are welcome in the clubhouse and golf course.  In fact many of these clubs have associated womens clubs that share the course or have their own course - Royal Aberdeen, Formby and Royal Troon come to mind.   In St Andrews, men have several clubs that are male only and there are, I believe, 2 clubs that are women only.

I don't think I would want my primary club to be male only, I enjoy the company of women, especially my wife, on the course and in the clubhouse too much.

I know some feel that all clubs should be open to all, and I respect that view, I just feel differently.

One final point, slightly related.  I have never been to a mixed club where associations were not primarily men with men, and women with women.  That just seems to be the primary way we humans associate with one another.

[Kalen Braley]

Don't any of you guys watch that show "Mad Men"....

Sometimes guys just need to be guys!!   

[Jud_T]

Dale,

Thanx for the thoughtful response.  I guess my feelings are as follows: I would consider a men's club only as a second club.  My wife and son play, but not my daughter.  So as long as I had a primary club where I could get out with the wife, in theory, I have no issues.  However, I think my wife and extended family might take offence given their backgrounds and political leanings.  And I'm not sure how I personally feel about these clubs in a broader sense...So back to square one....

[Dale Jackson]

I could have included the "wife factor".

I discussed this with SWMBO and, while she had some misgivings, partially financial, she was OK with me pursuing membership.  I would not have done so if she was opposed.

In truth, there is a part of me - the ex left leaning bleeding heart liberal - that feels just slightly guilty.  I manage to keep that part tucked away in a dark and duty corner!

[Mark Pearce]

I belong to a men only club, though as Dale described, one wiith an associated women's club that plays the course and has use of the clubhouse.  In fact, there's very little difference between what we have and a mixed sex club.  That wasn't true ten years ago, however!

[Roger Wolfe]

BTW- Augusta allows women to play the course, they just aren't allowed to be a member. Which is a different scenario than many of the all-men clubs I can think of.

I do not think Augusta has a rule that women cannot be members... they simply have not invited any women to join.
There is a Charlotte club that does not have any Jewish members... they do not have rules against it... they simply have not invited any Jewish people to join.

[Scott Warren]

Golf clubs exclude on all sorts of arbitrary grounds - why is sex such an off-putting and controversial one?

[JLahrman]

When the Martha Burk hullaballoo was going on back in 2003, David Owen wrote an excellent article in Golf Digest defending all-mens' clubs.  You can read it here:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_3_54/ai_100463203/

I think that there is a role for both male-only and female-only activities/clubs in society.  For men, if that equates to an all-male golf club, then great.  I support that as much as I support women going off and doing their own thing (whatever it may be).  There are women-only clubs and groups as well, which I think is a good thing.  Refusing to hire women or men based on gender alone at your company is typically sexist (with some exceptions), but the concept of a mens' only social group is not antiquated.

On a personal level, if I had the opportunity to join an all-male club, and I had the financial wherewithal to do so, I would have no problem with it as long as my wife didn't.  She's a golfer too although she doesn't play that much.  I agree with the sentiment that it would probably work better as a second club.  Apart from my wife, when I play golf I generally enjoy playing with men rather than women.  I don't feel that's any more sexist than if my wife were to tell me that she prefers being in a women-only book club.  However, I do not enjoy a super-machismo culture and would not enjoy a club where that was the case - be it a men-only club or men and women.

At the time of David Owen's article I believe there were about 4500 country clubs in the US and maybe 25 of them were men-only.

[Chris Kane]

Golf clubs exclude on all sorts of arbitrary grounds - why is sex such an off-putting and controversial one?

Because women comprise 50% of the population?

[JSlonis]

Golf clubs exclude on all sorts of arbitrary grounds - why is sex such an off-putting and controversial one?

Because women comprise 50% of the population?

But do they comprise 50% of the "golfing" population?  No.

[Roger Wolfe]

Well... what do you guys think of a "low handicap only" club.  Are these "golf crazy dinosaurs" doing something wrong??

"Consistent with the Club's philosophy, it is highly recommended that new applicants should have a respectable USGA handicap index of 15 or less. However, memberships are awarded to qualified applicants with a handicap index exceeding 15, provided that they have a sincere appreciation for the game of golf and are committed to improving their playing skills with the tremendous resources that our members enjoy. With Raleigh Country Club being very unique and course conditions providing pure golf for the true golfer, becoming a better player is essential in maximizing the RCC golfing experience."

[JLahrman]

The percentage of women in the population, or the percentage of women as golfers, is irrelevant.  Is there some magic number below which you would support a mens' only club and above which you would not?

Also, what would we think of a womens' only golf club?

[Scott Warren]

Golf clubs exclude on all sorts of arbitrary grounds - why is sex such an off-putting and controversial one?

Because women comprise 50% of the population?

Many clubs in the UK and elsewhere welcome members from only the highest class structures. By doing so they exclude much more than 50% of the population. How is that any different?

[Chris Kane]

But do they comprise 50% of the "golfing" population?  No.

To clarify, I'm not making a moral judgment one way or another on the issue - all I'm doing is answering Scott's question.  I believe private clubs can do what they want (but it cuts both ways - its also perfectly reasonable to make character judgments about the members of those clubs if you wish).  

I will stick with my view that gender as a selection criteria is controversial because half the world's population are women.  

[Rick Sides]

Jud,
Good question.  I think its a personal choice.  I think if you have a wife and kids, you just need to find an outlet to do with them also if you don't have one.  Like joining a swimming club or amusement park etc.  I have told my buddy who just got married, if you want to do guy things like golf, cards, etc.  you have to also do somethings with the lady you might not enjoy like going to chick flicks or museums.  Another good idea if you join a men's club is to encourage your wife to find a hoby to do while your golfing.

[Chris Kane]

Golf clubs exclude on all sorts of arbitrary grounds - why is sex such an off-putting and controversial one?

Because women comprise 50% of the population?

Many clubs in the UK and elsewhere welcome members from only the highest class structures. By doing so they exclude much more than 50% of the population. How is that any different?

Class is a less visible form of discrimination, and less arbitrary (there is such a thing as class mobility, though not as much as in Australia).

[Mark_F]

Class is a less visible form of discrimination

Clearly written by someone who has never been to the Western Suburbs.

and less arbitrary (there is such a thing as class mobility, though not as much as in Australia).

There is such a thing as gender mobility, too.

[Scott Warren]

Class is a less visible form of discrimination

Perhaps to those doing the discriminating it is.