[Tom MacWood]

That was the title of the article written by this American, and began this way:

"We have arrived at a point in the development of the game of golf in America when the above very serious question arises. Shall we, in deference to the fact that the majority of the members of our clubs are mediocre players, call a halt in the development of our links, or shall we proceed to make our courses real golf-courses, and then learn to play real golf on them?"

When was this written and by whom?

[TEPaul]

I would wager that was written by either Travis or Whigam----eg sounds like one or the other of them and the articles they wrote on that particular subject. If so, as to when, I'd have to do some checking which I doubt I will do. On that note, is there some particular reason why this thread's first post needs to be a guessing game? Is this first post intended to be some kind of a test of the knowledge or research inclination of some of the people on this website?

I'd prefer it if you could just add the date and author to the initial post and we could then begin to discuss the meaning of these kinds of remarks which seemed relatively commonplace by some of the most significant architects and architectural thinkers in the early years.

God knows it is a good and interesting and dynamic subject from back then. The point or theme of the title of that article isn't of any real difference from what Travis said about American architecture in that London Golf Illustrated article of Nov. 1901 that was under discussion on a recent thread entitled "Was Charles Blair Macdonald Really the Father of American Golf Course Architecture?"

And I am aware that HJ Whigam also wrote on the same theme back then.

[Bill_McBride]

Mr. Mucci has been using the Socratic method for years and you've never objected to that, Mr. Paul.      Or perhaps you have and I missed it.

[TEPaul]

Are you kidding? There's almost nothing that Patrick Mucci has ever done or ever said on here that I have NOT objected to? That's what happens when a guy is wrong 98.1% of the time.  

But with Tom MacWood and his initial post on this thread I'm not exactly objecting to it, I'm merely asking him the question of what his purpose is for asking all of us to guess who wrote that and when, since he obviously knows the answer himself. I would merely like to hear his answer. I'll be honest though, it is sort of a rhetorical question on my part, because I believe I already know the answer, and have for years with why he keeps asking all of of us to guess who said something or did something and when considering he already knows the answer.

And I'm telling him I think it is a great subject but I'm not interested in taking the time to check who wrote it and when before discussing the importance of what that article said and meant to say (at the moment I'm a lot more interested in spending the afternoon raking a ton of leaves). That's not an objection to his post; it's just a direct statement response.

But if you are intending to begin some kind of argument or controversy on this particular thread with your post, Bill McBride, I am not going to bite this time!  

[Bill_McBride]

Sorry, just checking to see how alert you were today!

[Adam Clayman]

Since there is a difference between a great course and a hard course. the question becomes what is meant in the quote by "real" golf courses?

Hard to believe anyone with any sophistication on the subject would phrase the question the way it is phrased.

[Tom MacWood]

Its not Whigham or Travis, but the time frame is close.

[Ronald Montesano]

CBM

[TEPaul]

"Sorry, just checking to see how alert you were today!"

Bill McBride:

I'll tell you how alert I am today. This morning I conducted a test during a pre-flight bombing run briefing downstairs in my barn/office with a squadron of flies and even though I was upstairs while they were taking their test I caught three flies cheating on their tests---two were cheating off the tests of two other flies and one fly had a crib sheet. All three of them had to turn in their wings and were suspended without garbage for a week. I'd say that's very alert, wouldn't you? If you have any additional interest in my alertness this morning I would even be glad to tell you what the test question was for that squadron of flies.

[Jim Nugent]

Tom, I'm guessing Tilly.  I know he wrote (in the 20's?) that American courses were tougher than British ones.  He said that was why American golfers were dominating the big events.  He brought up TOC as a course that time had passed, in terms of championship golf, IIRC.

[Bill_McBride]

"Sorry, just checking to see how alert you were today!"

Bill McBride:

I'll tell you how alert I am today. This morning I conducted a test during a pre-flight bombing run briefing downstairs in my barn/office with a squadron of flies and even though I was upstairs while they were taking their test I caught three flies cheating on their tests---two were cheating off the tests of two other flies and one fly had a crib sheet. All three of them had to turn in their wings and were suspended without garbage for a week. I'd say that's very alert, wouldn't you? If you have any additional interest in my alertness this morning I would even be glad to tell you what the test question was for that squadron of flies.

Sorry, I was actually playing golf this afternoon versus monitoring traffic on GCA.com.   

So what was the question?

[Tom MacWood]

Its not Macdonald or Tillinghast. This article appeared in 1902.

[TEPaul]

"So what was the question?"

Bill McBride:

The question on the test during the pre-flight briefing put to my squadron of flies was----who wrote the article "How difficult shall we make our golf-courses" and when was it written?

My star bomber-pilot fly, Aloysious "Eddie Rickenbacher" Flybreath, was the only one of the entire squadron who got the answer to the question right.

[TEPaul]

If someone guesses that article was written by Van Tassel Sutphen or Sutphen Van Tassle, they would have an approximately 37.879% chance of being correct. And if you can make book with some on here at 5-1 odds it should work out to be an excellent parlay.

[Tom MacWood]

Its not VTS or SVT.

Hint: It is a well-known golf architect

[TEPaul]

"Hint: It is a well-known golf architect"

Thanks, but as I mentioned above, personally I'm a lot more interested in what was said in that article and why than in who said it and certainly in guessing who said it. Would you perhaps care to explain why we all need to engage in this guessing game first if you already know who said it? Why don't you just tell us who said it?

[DMoriarty]

Tom Macwood,

From the content of the quote and the timing, Id have to guess that this was a leeding (Leeds-ing?) question. 

If not then Emmett. 

Those two had been extensively involved in two of the three top courses at the time, and the two that seemed focused on difficulty as equivalent to quality.

Plus I don't think many of the  other leading contenders named so far were Americans by birth. 

------------------

I enjoy this type of question.  Like the best  of the "guess the hole" threads it forces one to consider the context and match our understanding of a period with the reality of what was really going

[Tom MacWood]

David
You got it. It was Devereux Emmet.

[JESII]

I believe difficulty must be considered a key ingredient of good golf courses. Does anyone disagree?



Adam, I would also wonder about the words "...play real golf".

[Mark Pearce]

Tom,

Can you post a copy of the article?

[Philippe Binette]

depends on how you make it difficult:

give me wide fairways and green surronds , you can make severe bunkering, exacting green contours and basically make the course as hard and long as you want.

put in 25 yard wide fairway and 4 inch rough, then the game is no fun and too difficult

[JESII]

Phillipe,

What if the fairways were 70 yards wide and the greens were surrounded by shortgrass...BUT were raised 8 feet and were so severe a ball couldn't stop on more than 10% of the surface? That would lose it's allure pretty quick I think...

[Joe Hancock]

Phillipe,

What if the fairways were 70 yards wide and the greens were surrounded by shortgrass...BUT were raised 8 feet and were so severe a ball couldn't stop on more than 10% of the surface? That would lose it's allure pretty quick I think...

Oh, I don't know...the guys had a great time at Palmetto....

(J/K, Palmetto was no where near that severe)

Joe

[JESII]

Joe,

I guess more to my overall point about difficulty is that I have to imagine guys like you are spending time looking for small things that will add challenge (among other things) to the course and maybe just separate one player from the next.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Can you post a copy of the article?

Mark
I'll try to post it this evening. It is a very interesing article.

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