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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #100 on: November 30, 2009, 08:44:28 PM »
NSW belongs, certainly, in the top of anyone's list of great courses. I disagree with Liddy-Man and Norwegia-Boy, but I have before. Every course deserves — indeed, they must have — a few bad holes. I am not in agreement that NSW has as many as Liddy-Man claims, but then that is what makes playing new golf courses fun. As for the view to the metal building, it seems to have been mitigated by a recent planting program, so I am not sure we can hold that against the club and its standing.

......

MALCOLM:  "Say, isn't that a ugly flat going up along the Home...?

SIR BRIMUSÉ:   "Yes. It is being built by Ol' Fartgernald...you know, the chap with the limp."

MALCOLM:  "Yes. A pity you know. Ruins the sunlight."

SIR BIRMUSÉ:  "Ahh yes, I agree .......And, I hear they want to build a new building for the R&A...Bastards!"

......

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #101 on: November 30, 2009, 11:00:13 PM »

When you say penal you mean bunkers I presume?

No, I don't mean bunkers, or any other form of hazard. I'm talking about the need to challenge every shot.

If the green favours an approach from one side of the fairway by angle or slope (or both), then there are multiple options with varying degrees of difficulty for the approach. The ultimate drive will be the edge of the fairway on one side, which can be tested by a bunker or creek or fall away etc., but do all other strategic paths need to be tested with hazards as well?

Regarding bias - having lived in Sydney for a few years & having played NSW & RS quite a few times & knowing a few of the people on the Australian ranking panels, I don't believe there is a bias apart from they believe NSW to be better. In the same way you have a bias toward RS.  :P

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #102 on: December 01, 2009, 01:43:53 AM »
How many of the raters do you think are Australians that can give a rating?  It would be interesting to find out. 

<snip>

Royal Sydney has only been redesigned since 2004 or 2005.  I have seen the photos of RS before Watson worked there and it was bland even with the 140 bunkers.  If you think that the only thing Watson has done is to make the bunkering make a bit more sense I think you are mistaken.  I will scan some photos I have of the old RS with the new bunkering and it will show that he has transformed the bunkering from mediocre bunkering to world class bunkering.

Brian

I posted on your Royal Sydney thread some thoughts about it and was hoping that you may possibly elaborate for me here - what holes in your opinion are "world class" at Royal Sydney ?

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #103 on: December 01, 2009, 06:15:17 AM »
Kevin,

I don't have a Royal Sydney thread.

I will come back to you about world class holes but the par 3s are pretty damn good as is hole 1, to start with.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #104 on: December 01, 2009, 06:28:49 AM »
Sorry Brian but didn't you start a thread a few weeks ago on:

"How come Royal Sydney is not in the Top 100 of the world rankings ?"

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42144.0.html


Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #105 on: December 01, 2009, 06:42:46 AM »
Yeh, sorry Kevin that was a while ago now.  Are these the questions:

Brian

I can't think of any truly outstanding holes at Royal Sydney that would assist in elevating it into the discussion of "all world golf courses" ? That alone for mine inhibits it.

It's finishing stretch of holes from 16-18 are probably it's best and outside them I struggle to find anything that really stands out.


Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #106 on: December 01, 2009, 06:46:10 AM »
Thanks Brian

That's my view - hence I was interested as to what you think elevated it to be worthy of discussion as a World Top100 course ?

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #107 on: December 01, 2009, 01:04:41 PM »
Anthony,

I forgot to say thank you for the history of the course.  It was a fascinating read, I really appreciate your efforts.

Now just to add a little salt in with my questions.  With all your attachment to the course do you not admit at least a little bias for the course?   ;D

Brian.

I really did not like NSW much when I started playing there in the mid 70s. I could never pick the right club into any green and hardly ever broke 80... Considering the fact I was in the middle of two seasons undefeated in Pennants/Apperly Shield, it was a humbling experience... lived out mostly in front of my grandfather and his NSWGC cronies, who thought anyone on single figures at another Div 1 club was playing with a vanity handicap. (They might be right. I've never shot over 80 in 15 rounds at Royal Sydney.) A 75 from the Championship tees in 25 mph winds 10 years ago still sticks out as one my best days on a golf course.

There's simply no need to trick things up at NSW. Much of the internal contouring on the greens and other 'aesthetic' improvements (tiered greens, extreme false fronts) have been taken out, because they don't work in extreme wind conditions. They like to keep the grass around the greens pretty short and the greens stimping at 10-11 for competitions.

It's all about your ability to execute the shot in front of you. It's an acquired taste especially when your game doesn't rise to the challenge of the course and the weather.

In terms of where NSWGC fits in with the best of the world, I think I'll have a better idea once I visit Bandon Dunes next summer. It will still be above Royal Sydney, though.  :)

arb:





Next!

Duncan Betts

Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #108 on: December 02, 2009, 01:52:28 AM »
NSW would have to be one of the most unique golf courses out there, so its no surprise that it elicits mixed feelings from all and sundry.  I play there reasonably regularly, about as often as I visit Sydney.

I have actually found that the more I play, the less I like it.  Given I fell head over heals in love with it upon my first game, I'm still quite close to the old girl and still enjoy every hit.  The most enjoyable aspect is that unless you get a still day, its almost like playing a new course every time, unless you are a weekly player, which is a great feature of a course I visit 3-4 times a year.

My favourite hole is the 5th by a large margin, and quite clearly the 6th is a wonderful hole - although I'm not sure it is great architecture.  I don't think I could find a golf architect who couldn't build that hole on that site and make it great, so its my position that it certainly could have been better.  I'm not sure how it could be better (thats why I'm not an architect!), but I agree with comments earlier that the green just isn't pleasing to look at, which is an achievement given how beautiful the location.

I read in today's paper that the Australian Open practice rounds were played yesterday and many gave up, one player reported hitting a 60m 5-iron!  On such an exposed site, this is always a risk, and I'm not sure anythng can be done to prevent this happneing during the event.

It is quite clearly in my view the best course in NSW, and I'd actually have Newcaslte 2nd, ahead of Royal Sydney.  Although RS has imprvoed significantly since the renovation and I agree that the first is an excaptional hole that perhaps doesn't get the kudos it deserves.  Unfortunately, both Newcastle and NSW need significant work to reach their potential, far too overgrown in many areas - this seems to be the lot of many courses today though.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #109 on: December 02, 2009, 02:11:15 AM »
It is quite clearly in my view the best course in NSW, and I'd actually have Newcaslte 2nd, ahead of Royal Sydney. 

Duncan

Have you had a chance to check out the "new" Lakes ? For mine - it's most certainly in the mix

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #110 on: December 02, 2009, 03:46:55 AM »

Have you had a chance to check out the "new" Lakes ? For mine - it's most certainly in the mix
Kevin, I agree about The Lakes. I would put it ahead of Royal Sydney, which would leave Royal Sydney 4th or 5th in NSW.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #111 on: December 02, 2009, 04:04:22 AM »
Totally agreed Kevin & Andrew. The Lakes certainly sits above RS now. With Newcastle above The Lakes.

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Richard Chamberlain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #112 on: December 02, 2009, 05:51:09 PM »
Question 1.

65 GC Arkies jump on a Virgin flight from Syd - Melb.
Each punter is allowed 28kg for their kit. Every Kg over that allowance is charged at $10 for excess baggage.

How much excess baggage (if any) was accumulated ?

Question 2.

Spot the Norwegian.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 05:52:47 PM by Richard Chamberlain »

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #113 on: December 02, 2009, 06:00:33 PM »
You mean that idiot doing his Winston Churchill impression in the background? I thought he was a ring-in.......

And I won't go in for your first question as I know the answer!!!

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #114 on: December 02, 2009, 06:07:39 PM »
That chick in the foreground looks pretty unimpressed!

Richard Chamberlain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #115 on: December 02, 2009, 06:12:17 PM »
That chick in the foreground looks pretty unimpressed!
That "chick" is our newest addition to the Society. Kristine Kerr from NZ. I think she looked unimpressed because she just got lugged with a bagful of Excess baggage.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #116 on: December 02, 2009, 06:17:03 PM »
no Rich, its because she has spotted you taking her picture.

Kristine is our first female member of SAGCA and our first Kiwi. A very nice lady too I might say.

Duncan Betts

Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #117 on: December 02, 2009, 06:28:09 PM »
It is quite clearly in my view the best course in NSW, and I'd actually have Newcaslte 2nd, ahead of Royal Sydney. 

Duncan

Have you had a chance to check out the "new" Lakes ? For mine - it's most certainly in the mix

Kevin,

Unfortunately, I haven't yet had the chance.  I wasn't a particularly big fan of the course previously, so it must certainly have been a significant change.  I'm not a personal fan of the contrast between the two 9's, and the front 9 is quite poor.  Much like Newcastle and NSW, it really does need some significant tree clearing.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #118 on: December 02, 2009, 07:37:49 PM »
Duncan

I can assure you - Mike clayton has done more than significant tree clearing. You would not recognise the F9 now but you can get an idea of same from the clubs website. The F9 is vastly improved as a result.

I've attched the link beklow

http://www.thelakesgolfclub.com.au/TheLakes/TheLakes.nsf/0/3DBE6AECF4F560D4CA2574E1007E84DF?OpenDocument

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #119 on: December 02, 2009, 08:37:49 PM »
Neil:

I have never heard Kristine Kerr's name before.  Does she work with a larger firm?  Impressed that you let a Kiwi join the SAGCA, even if there were ten of them that qualified.

PS  I'm in Amsterdam today with Adam Lawrence and Andrew Brown, among others.  They both say hello.

Duncan Betts

Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #120 on: December 02, 2009, 08:57:53 PM »
Kevin,

All I can say is WOW!  I'm not very 'up to date' with architects and who is doing what, so wasn't really even aware The Lakes was having work done.  It sure does look amazing, and I will be sure to attempt a visit on my next trip to Sydney.

It sure does speak volumes for Mike Clayton, as I also wasn't aware he was responsible for the stuff and Peninsula until yesterday.  Some fantasic work.  Of course, I'm a little bias, as I was fully aware he is responsible for the great work at Royal Queensland.

Ian Andrew

Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #121 on: December 02, 2009, 09:01:30 PM »
Richard,

Sounds like you need to turn it into a "Commonwealth GCA Society."  :)

You would likely get a member application from north of the equator.

Matthew Delahunty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #122 on: December 02, 2009, 09:42:06 PM »
Neil:

I have never heard Kristine Kerr's name before.  Does she work with a larger firm?  Impressed that you let a Kiwi join the SAGCA, even if there were ten of them that qualified.

PS  I'm in Amsterdam today with Adam Lawrence and Andrew Brown, among others.  They both say hello.

I caught up with Kristine and her sister briefly at the GCA gathering in Melbourne.  They were both very personable kiwis (although her sister is now a "Melburnian").  She has recently finished her first full course at the Pegasus resort in the Canterbury area.  She said it is soon to host the NZ Women's Open, so someone somewhere will get to see her work on TV.

http://www.pegasusgolfcourse.co.nz/info_faqs.htm#05
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 09:49:00 PM by Matthew Delahunty »

Richard Chamberlain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #123 on: December 02, 2009, 09:45:54 PM »
Richard,

Sounds like you need to turn it into a "Commonwealth GCA Society."  :)

You would likely get a member application from north of the equator.
Sorry mate we have pretty strict rules on Goatees ! :'(

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Course Architects' tour of Australia
« Reply #124 on: December 02, 2009, 11:38:43 PM »
Tom
Excellent, say hi to both of them for me. Andrew came down with his family for the tour and had a great time.

Kristine used to work for Belt Collins and Nelson Haworth I understand. She is on her own in NZ these days. We decided to start letting kiwis into our society, fully expecting that we might get a few others like Scott Macpherson and Greg Turner in due course. I don't think they could ever have the numbers to justify one on their own.

Ian, shave off the goatee and you'd be in I reckon!!
Rich, what page is that requirement on in our rule book?

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