[Bill_McBride]

George Thomas advocated a second hole coming right back to the clubhouse for both pidking up forgotten items, including late arriving playing partners! Others have recommended 6-6-6 configurations for three returns to the clubhouse.  Barring something really spectacular, there are just a lot of conveniences experienced with rturning nines.

I was thinking of Thomas too.  Both Riviera and LaCumbre have second holes that bring you right back to the clubhouse, also handy in the event of a sudden death match!

Cuscowilla has been mentioned many times here as a course with I believe four separate loops that bring you back to the clubhouse - #1 - #6, #7 - #9, #10 - #14, #15 - #18.  That really makes it great for that late afternoon "beer loop."

But that is really contingent on a large piece of land and a clubhouse right in the middle, not often the case.

[Steve Wilson]

Until I played golf in Scotland in 1979, I had never seen a course that didn't have the first nine returning to the clubhouse.  I don't recall what my reaction was architechurally but I'm sure I was surprised not to have a place to buy something to drink and perhaps rid myself of what I had already consumed that day.  Perhaps, as an archetypical American, I had doubts about the legality of it. 

Then again, since up until that time most of my golf had been played on nine hole courses so there wasn't much choice about returning to the clubhouse was there.   Now there's an original concept.  Nine holes that just go on and on and on away from the clubhouse and when you've finished you have to find your way back.  I think, given the temptation and justification for grand larceny of golf carts, this would probably have to be employed on a walking only course.

Does anyone know of a case where a development ran out of money and the course ended at some distance from the start?  I remember playing Canaan Valley State Park back in the early 60s and before they finished both nines they started you on what is now five and you played back to number four.   

[Jeff_Brauer]

But, I guess a few extra tee times are more important than what some old guy said.

Tom,

I have had owners tell me that in those exact words, perhaps with a few expletives thrown in at the appropriate place.....

I bet Mac said the former early in his career, and then after getting to work on CP and perhaps NSW changed his mind, again because of the spectacular sites.  What other Mac courses don't return at the clubhouse, including Agusta and Pasa near the end of his career?

[Scott Coan]

Another perspecive is not so much extra tee times or rounds per year but attracting new members to the game.  At my home course the fastest growing category is new 9-hole members.  They are actually a thriving little group (mostly ladies but a few men mixed in) and it is great to see them out there having a hit.  More than a few have "graduated" up to full membership.

Jumping straight into a club and having to play 18 full holes can be quite intimidating for a beginner golfer.  Having returning 9's is ideal to attract this demographic.

[JESII]

Jeff,

New South Wales comes back.

[Ben Stephens]

One of Alister MacKenzie's '13 ideals for golf course design' is where allowed to have two loops of nine holes, biggest example of this is Augusta.


Cheers
Ben

Ben:

If you are going to quote Dr. MacKenzie on this topic it would be wise to remember the revised quote from his later book, The Spirit of St. Andrews:

"I believe I was the first to write articles emphasizing the importance of two loops of nine holes.

During recent years in the United States I have had more sleepless nights owning to committees being obsessed by this principle than anything else, and I have often regretted that it had ever been propounded.

If land for a golf course lends itself readily to constructing the two loops, well and good, but it is a great mistake to sacrifice excellent natural features for the purpose of obtaining it.  Most of the world's best known courses, such as nearly all the British Championship courses, The National, Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, and many others I could name, are without loops.  There is a charm in exploring fresh country and never seeing the same view twice until one arrives back at the clubhouse."


But, I guess a few extra tee times are more important than what some old guy said.

Tom, Just to clarify I should have said - Is one of Alister MacKenzie's '13 ideals for golf course design' is where allowed to have two loops of nine holes, biggest example of this is Augusta.

GCA - Royal County Down has 2 loops of nines.

The bigger picture is that most golf courses are not going to be championship standard courses with very small membership most clients/owners are looking to make as much profit to get as much people on the course anyday therefore a larger membership on an average golf course with few bunkers and now thick rough. Two or three starting points from the clubhouse is ideal for them.

The other issue is that clients may start just building 9 holes and then add another nine a few years later. It is likely this way two loops of nine is formed as at many golf clubs in the UK.

Two loops of nines is more ideal for the PGA tour to enable them to have a bigger field in tournament events

Cheers
Ben

[Adrian_Stiff]

Kelly- I think returning nines are better (but not essential), would you agree with that..simple yes or no?

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