[Paul_Turner]

Raynor didn't bother playing, correct?   Or is this a myth?

How about others?

Are there contemporary architects that don't play?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Yes...

There are definitely some who haven't played for years...

I know at least one who's never played in his life... Designs some nice courses as well although isn't the strongest on strategy...

[Paul_Turner]

Ally

I guess another question is...why wouldn't an architect still play the game? 

Do potential clients expect the architect to be a good player?

[Tom MacWood]

I believe Raynor did play, he just wasn't very good.

[A.G._Crockett]

I believe Raynor did play, he just wasn't very good.

Didn't I read somewhere that Raynor never played at all until after he had built his 4th course?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally

I guess another question is...why wouldn't an architect still play the game? 

Do potential clients expect the architect to be a good player?

In general, it's maybe because they find themselves with less time and other priorities... Usual problems... Possibly also that they spend more time walking courses - I am playing less since I've been involved in GCA... Still, I think you miss a trick if you no longer have a good memory of the shots...

I think many potential clients will expect a good player and certainly a player of some sort... I'd never name anyone I knew didn't play because people might have a preconceived idea of their work as opposed to basing it in reality...

What do you think Paul?

[Paul_Turner]

Ally

I don't think the "no time" is a good reason.  Architects in general have many more opportunities to play than most of us non architects who are just as busy.

I wonder if, paradoxically, architects who have given up the game because they play badly,  actually start to design courses that are geared more toward the scratch player or pro.  And forget the plight of their fellow bad golfer?

[Anthony Gray]

  Mike Young is a PLAYA.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think that most golf course architects wont play much. I hardy play and if I do, 9 holes is enough, I almost dont enjoy it now because I am so bad. To be good  (low hcp) you need to play twice a week. Because I am bad now I think it actually helps my architecture in understanding the need to create ways for lesser players to get round.

To some degree if you are busy as a course architect or even greenkeeping or just involved full time in golf, then playing golf does not relax you in the way it would have used too and especially as you get older. I have seen club pro's that have not played in years. I suppose you just get too much of golf.

[Ally Mcintosh]

It's the old adage that work and play don't mix I suppose...

But also that you can learn a lot from a course whilst walking that you miss whilst playing... Of course, the vice-versa is also true...

[Adrian_Stiff]

It's the old adage that work and play don't mix I suppose...

But also that you can learn a lot from a course whilst walking that you miss whilst playing... Of course, the vice-versa is also true...

Ally- and the work and play thing seems to get worse as you get older......so you got that to look forward too, which is nice!
You are 100% right about seeing more courses is learning too. I think this site and the photo tours is great learning too.

[Jamie Barber]

Question: if an architect does not play, or not to a high standard, can he/she design courses to challenge the best players (accepting they are a tiny minority of the golfing community)?

As an example, I've seen a par 4 dogleg, which for all the club players is never anything that 2 shots to hit the green (driver/3 wood then short or midiron if you aim correctly). But a pro I know regularly drives the green by hitting over trees that the rest of us would not even imagine possible (needs length, height, and the ball to get up quick). Similarly Chart Hills has a number of par5 which don't play as par5s for pros, because all the pro's carry bunkers which force the rest of us to lay up with the 2nd.

Question is really, unless you know what is possible in terms of playing ability from the top players, can you design (or modify) courses accordingly?

[Tom_Doak]

Jamie:

Jack Nicklaus and Gary Player agree with you ... nobody but a tournament player is qualified to design a great course.

[Expletive deleted.]


Paul:

There are very few architects who don't play at all.  Some rarely play because of physical issues ... advancing age, or a bad back, or something like that.  I remember asking Tom Weiskopf what kind of player Jay Morrish was, and he said he had never played golf with Jay, because Jay had back trouble!

But, it's possible Jay Morrish just avoided playing with Nicklaus and Weiskopf because he knew that if he didn't play great, they would think less of him.  That's an issue which we also have to be careful of, if we have a client who is a very good player ... because if the client plays golf better than you, he will conclude he knows more about golf and therefore golf architecture than you do, too.  I would guess that I couldn't have worked for Ken Bakst, at Friars Head, for that reason; but that's a problem Ben Crenshaw doesn't have.

When I met and spent time with Robert Trent Jones [on three occasions between 1983 and 1988], it was clear he hadn't actually played golf in years, and I thought it started to show in his work ... courses like Treetops and Ballybunion New had very severe shot values, and it looked to me like the only golf Mr. Jones was seeing anymore was watching the pros on TV.

But, the main reason architects don't play that much is simply TIME.  I am on the road 150 days a year for work, and it's hard to make golf trips on top of that.  And when I'm home, and not in the office, family calls.  I think I played Crystal Downs seven times this season, and that's above average for me lately.  And to top it off, because I don't play as much, I'm not as good as I used to be, and it's more frustrating when I do play.

But I still love to get out there.  I just counted up on a flight home a couple of days ago, and I've played something like 40 rounds of golf in all this year, all around the world.

[Bill_McBride]

"Architects who don't play?"

What difference does it make, most of the players can't play either!   

[Jamie Barber]

Jamie:

Jack Nicklaus and Gary Player agree with you ... nobody but a tournament player is qualified to design a great course.

I don't agree/disagree - more that I was amazed by how some pros can hit the ball nowadays (and I've never seen Tiger or PhilM or one of the top top players). The course layout and strategy that influence me, has little relation to what influences they way they play.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I saw both Pete and Alice Dye's names up in various clubhouses in Pinehurst this week.

DMK lists himself as an 8 on his website.

Silva is supposed to be about a 7.

G. Cornish didn't play much golf, but sure did design a lot of courses in NE.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jamie I dont think it makes any difference if you area high handicapper or a low handicapper or a pro and I dont think it matters if you currenty play or not but, I think you have to be able to sit down with the plan and detach yourself 4 or 5 times and think like a high capper, low one, pro, medium and novice and perhaps thats the bits that some of the pro's cant do so well because they rarely experience ham and eggers.

[Tom_Doak]

Adrian / Jamie:

What you have to be able to do is VISUALIZE what those great players can do.

But, you also have to be realistic about how much it matters.

I've played golf with a half-dozen guys who have won major championships over the years -- although most of them were over the hill before they stooped to play with me -- and I have walked inside the ropes with some great ones in their primes, most recently at the Kiwi Challenge last year.  And I have to admit, having been away from the Tour for some time, that it was awesome to see how far and straight all the boys can hit it, and how accurate they were with a wedge when they had to be.

But, how is that really relevant to the courses I am building?  Anthony Kim talked about how he almost broke 60 once when he spent a summer working for his teacher at High Pointe, but he had fun playing the golf course, and obviously it being very score-able did not hold him back from developing his game a bit.  When I watch him play, I think, why SHOULDN'T he be in the low 60's when he is playing his best?

And yet the only reason my courses have ever been criticized by a great player is because they thought a certain shot was too DIFFICULT "for the members".  They usually phrase it that way because they don't want to admit the person it's hard for is THEMSELVES.  And yet the members are not complaining about the hole in question, and my game is closer to the members' game than the great player's game is.

[Jamie Barber]

Yeah I guess you are right. However, it seems to be that the gap between top pros and club players is getting larger though, so if a course wants to host pro events the challenges it needs are somewhat at odds with those for the remaining golfing community. It's a difficult balance to satisfy both. Unless score is not important (maybe it's not)

The pro I referred to has not top level (he plays challenge and europro tour), but watching him staggers me. Hazards that I have to think about, he can carry by 80yds or more. It's just a different game

[JC Jones]

Yeah I guess you are right. However, it seems to be that the gap between top pros and club players is getting larger though, so if a course wants to host pro events the challenges it needs are somewhat at odds with those for the remaining golfing community. It's a difficult balance to satisfy both. Unless score is not important (maybe it's not)

The pro I referred to has not top level (he plays challenge and europro tour), but watching him staggers me. Hazards that I have to think about, he can carry by 80yds or more. It's just a different game

Perhaps why some of the greatest courses dont defend themselves with hazards (unless you are including bunkers in your definition of "hazard").

[Jamie Barber]

er ... according to the rules isn't a bunker a hazard 

[Scott Warren]

I would guess that I couldn't have worked for Ken Bakst, at Friars Head, for that reason; but that's a problem Ben Crenshaw doesn't have.

Interesting. I just read when Bakst played in the 98 Masters, he played a practice round with Crenshaw, and played with him in the tournament as well.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Well, I guess virtually all architects are better players than Alister MacKenzie, so they got that going for them

Ulrich

[Tom_Doak]

Ulrich:

Dr. MacKenzie is a rare example of a player who got better as he got older.  When he wrote his original book in 1920, it was clear that he felt inferior as a golfer, as he made countless references to his other qualifications and liked to tell stories about how good players didn't understand the game as it was played by everyone else.  But as his stature increased, he hung around players like Alex Russell and Max Behr and Bobby Jones, and he got some lessons from Ernest Jones, and he was able to break 80 on occasion.

Strangely enough, I don't recall MacKenzie ever saying specifically how old he was when he learned to play golf to begin with, but he was not born into it as so many of the Scots pros were.

[Ben Sims]

I've always had the notion that any fool could build a hard golf course.  The trick is to make one that is hard for the really good guys and fun for the hackers.

In this regard, I think being an architect that doesn't play is actually an advantage. 

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