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Jay Flemma

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Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« on: November 09, 2009, 02:45:11 PM »
Had a perfect day at Sleepy Hollow on Saturday.  The reno/redo is superb.  The tree-clearing program oprned up wonderful vistas all across the golf course and all the way to the Hudson.  With the fall colors, it was majestic.  I hope to make it a regular Halloween gig.  Run don't walk, it was great fun:

Fifth Hole.  I made a sandie out of the left front bunker.



Sixth.  The Principal's nose makes this a tough second shot for amateurs like me, but the tee shot is murder as well!



The idyllic 10th...



15, 16 and the Hudson.  Awesome.



Fave holes:  The par-3s, 15, and 17. 

What does everyone think of 18?  I haven't seen the old hole, but man, that it one tough hole to end the day...those bunkers are deeeeeeep.
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Anthony Gray

Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2009, 03:00:43 PM »


  Thaks Jay. Did you get to spend the night at the club house.

  Anthony

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Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2009, 03:22:01 PM »
No, I didn't.  My sponsor had a dinner.  But I did read The Legend of Sleepy Hollow again:)
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Anthony Gray

Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2009, 03:24:57 PM »
Quote from: Jay Flemma on November 09, 2009, 03:22:01 PM
No, I didn't.  My sponsor had a dinner.  But I did read The Legend of Sleepy Hollow again:)

  A friend told me that a night in the club house is equal to the course.

  Anthony

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Jay Flemma

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2009, 03:42:13 PM »
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Ryan Admussen

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2009, 06:22:19 PM »
wow  :)
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2009, 06:39:20 PM »
Jay,

Great photos.

I'm glad they removed the trees behind # 5 green, it makes for a far, far better hole.

Sleepy Hollow is a terrific golf course, one I'd enjoy playing every day.

And, it seems that they're trying to improve/restore more of it every year.
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Stewart Abramson

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2009, 07:45:53 PM »
Sleepy was the home course of our high school team (SHHS). I didn't play then but play there every year with a high school friend who is still a member. It is better than ever.

Here is a link to my photos of the course (post renovations)

http://sports.webshots.com/album/564131293SHoWeK

The 16th
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Carl Nichols

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2009, 08:15:37 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on November 09, 2009, 06:39:20 PM
Jay,

Great photos.

I'm glad they removed the trees behind # 5 green, it makes for a far, far better hole.


From the pictures (I've never played Sleepy Hollow), it looks like removing trees behind #5 certainly improved the view, and may have improved the conditioning -- but did it also improve the hole from a strategic perspective?
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Jay Flemma

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2009, 08:44:38 PM »
Well I dont know if removing trees from well behind and to the side of the greens improved strategy...the new bunkers and green at 12 sure did though.
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Jeff Loh

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2009, 10:32:55 PM »
Played it two Saturdays ago. Amazing. Should be the poster boy for tree removal.
If they could get it fast and firm (hopefully NEXT summer) Winged Foot and Quaker better watch out.
The super needs to CUT THE ROUGH on the left side of 18 fairway. I'm pretty sure you are supposed to hit it left and let the (left to right sloping) landform feed your ball into the fairway. As the hole plays now if you hit it left the ball stays there.....pretty dumb for a course that has done all the right things in the past couple of years.
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George_Bahto

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2009, 10:42:46 PM »
Jeff - itz being addressed as part of the on-going plan as is f & f - plus a lot more
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

brad_miller

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2009, 07:29:05 AM »
George, F&F would be GREAT, do they have the will? Agree with comment about 18. When will the little tree behind 8 be gone? You opened the door so I might ask, what is a lot more? As of today even with a few small issues (this is quite an accomplishment)  and the course being too soft this has to be one of the top rest/renovations done in the USA over the past 5 years. Another great example is Plainfield, which was/is also done by Hanse.

One has to give them great credit for ditching the prior master plan, hiring Hanse and Bahto and then basically going "all in" with the new plan. Many clubs even when they hire the right team, pick and choose the things that get done like a Chinese menu, not them.

Jay,

the idyllic 10th is still probably the worst green and the hole most out of context with the rest of the course.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2009, 08:00:05 AM »
Brad Miller,

I think your comment regarding "all in" is the critical comment and issue.

As you indicated, to many clubs only select items on a Master Plan that appeal to certain members of the committee/board rather than adopting and implementing the entire plan.

The fragmented approach often ends up fizzling out over a few years, leaving the golf course only marginally improved.
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George_Bahto

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2009, 10:25:20 AM »
Pat: we’ve been fortunate that the club has embraced virtually all our proposals and they have even taken some step much further than we anticipated   -   the tree removal, for sure!

Sleepy has recently charged us to move forward to a “Phase II” program.


This Phase II also took place at Essex County where we ended up putting in about a dozen or more strategic bunkers that they never let Banks implement.

Very satisfying.



Brad: I can’t go into “what is more” because it is still all in the decision-making mode (well, perhaps further than that), but if history here would be an indicator ................................     “All In”    ?? 
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Carl Nichols

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2009, 10:28:03 AM »
Patrick:
Regarding the 5th hole, do you think the tree removal improved the hole from a strategic perspective? 
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George_Bahto

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2009, 10:29:17 AM »
before and after, the approach to 1-green ........................   the three large trees behind the green will be coming down

« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 10:53:44 AM by George_Bahto »
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

corey miller

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2009, 11:08:04 AM »
Having been involved in the process at Sleepy Hollow I am convinced this project was successful because we gave Gil and George a mandate and then stayed out of the way for the most part.  I guess tied in with that was selecting the proper architect and choosing a mandate that seemed to work well in our situation (restore course to look classic).  Though it was my choice from the beginning we solicited advice from professionals as to which "style"  macdonald-tilly ,would be most appropriate for our course,club,topography and history as well as what else was on the ground in Westchester.

There are still many things to be done for THIS PERFECTIONIST, but we are close.  George and Gil have a few more ideas (that perhaps they were afraid to show us previously ;D) and we have to get the critical detail work complete but that is an "in-house" mission.  

Clearly if we hired Gil to build a new course we would not want him to design it on paper and then execute it on the ground with no changes in the field.  I view this second pass as the "in-the field" work that might not get done during a restoration project.  I am hesitant to say it that way because George had great lee-way during the project to get the looks right and make adjustments in the field but this is just a "lengthening" of the timeline of the in the dirt process.  

That said, any changes in the contours of the greens was not part of the original mandate and the membership, after seeing other more bold macdonald greens, understands that this aspect was clearly watered down over the years.  With fast and firm we will totally return the "fun" to the golf course.

Carl-I am not sure if this fits in with your definition of "strategy" but the removal of the trees has taken away "targets" or things to aim at both off the tee (hitting over large hill) and assuredly from the fairway below.  Isn't making a player less confident with an iron(because of a skyline green) strategy?  Certainly the wind has kicked up in that area making the hole even more challenging.  
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 06:07:40 PM by corey miller »
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Jay Flemma

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2009, 06:31:46 PM »
I didnt think that 10 was so bad...I thought it was a nice change of pace.  It's a good size green with some interior contour, and there is bail out room left (not that you need it on such a short hole with so large a green).  I also think it adds to the course's unique character.

6 and 18 have bitten me every time that I have played there.  On six, if you don't get your drive up top, you have a tough second to that tight fairway. On 18, I keep hitting into those dratted bunkers!
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Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jeff Loh

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2009, 07:56:50 PM »
George
Great to hear from you. Thanks for your comments and let's hope they let you go all way!
I agree with Brad Miller regarding # 10. An odd hole at best. Reminds me of the 11th at Round Hill. Perhaps a "change of pace" but completely out of character with the rest of the golf course.
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Carl Nichols

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2009, 08:12:25 PM »
Corey:
Those are both strategic/playability changes in my book; thanks.  Looks like a great hole, though I'm in the camp of those who include aesthetics when talking about holes and courses!
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2009, 09:17:48 PM »
Quote from: Carl Nichols on November 10, 2009, 10:28:03 AM

Patrick:

Regarding the 5th hole, do you think the tree removal improved the hole from a strategic perspective? 


Carl,

I think it has.

For whatever the reason, the concept of framing holes became popular, probably starting in the 50's, right on through the 80's or later.
Sometimes holes/greens became framed due to benign neglect.

Irrespective of the reasons, framing holes/greens that were relatively open, where there was a good deal of doubt/fear in the golfers mind, diminished the challenge.

Restoring that challenge brings with it, "strategic improvement"

The 5th hole/green has some nice skyline qualities to it.

Qualities that were lost when trees behind the green were allowed to grow and provide a visual backstop, a framing of the target.

Prior to that, uncertainty abounded, golfers could zero in on a tree for both alignment and distance purposes.

Removing those aids or crutches makes those back hole locations far more challenging, which in turn places greater emphasis on hitting your drive in the optimal DZ, so the play of the hole, functions in a backward sort of way, revolving around the hole location and the golfers ability or inability to hone in on it.

I've always liked skyline greens, even pseudo or hybrid skyline greens, I think they present a unique challenge that's been lost all too often due to overzealous arborists.

Removing those trees returns the play of the hole to its original intent, absent any "directional aids" provided by the "fair" minded crowd.

Hope that answers your question.
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Jay Flemma

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2009, 09:55:53 AM »
I like the skyline green at five too and especially like the alps at 15 with it's punchbowl green.
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Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Carl Nichols

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Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2009, 08:06:24 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on November 10, 2009, 09:17:48 PM

Hope that answers your question.

It does, thanks, though I wonder if that change alone makes it a "far, far better" hole.  Unless you're including aesthetics in the mix. 
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Sleepy Hollow in the Fall
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2009, 08:59:12 PM »
Carl,

I believe that it does make it a far, far better hole, absent the aesthetics, for a skyline green, in theory, has not vista behind it.

I think you're viewing the hole, not from the hollow or valley at the bottom of the DZ, but, from an elevated location that provides far more than a skyline view.

When you're in the hollow/valley and have no frame of reference, vis a vis, a backdrop, I think the hole is a far, far better hole than what existed previously, but, that's just my perspective.

Some golfers don't like skyline greens and some depend upon the framing, labeling holes without framing as incomplete.
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