[Anthony Gray]

  Is it true that the first cups were made from sewer pipes at St Andrews?

  Is Old Tom responsible for the first cup?

  How would the game be different if the cup was bigger/smaller?

  Anthony

[mike_beene]

There was a tournament (maybe a PGA)accidentally played with cups that were the wrong size.

[Mike_Young]

Cup...you say cup....
check this out....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV831oPwG8M

now that's a cup

[Garland Bayley]

Was it The Squire that advocated for a larger cup? He thought putting was too insignificant to extract such emphasis. If I remember correctly, there was experiment where they used larger cups and found that the better putters still got the ball in the hole more often. I.e., there wasn't much difference in what the outcomes would be.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Anthony

The answer is NO, they where rain water down pipes no sewer.

Melvyn

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony

The answer is NO, they where rain water down pipes no sewer.

Melvyn

  Was Old Tom the first to use them?

 Thanks Melvyn,

  Anthony

[Norbert P]

  Is it true that the first cups were made from sewer pipes at St Andrews?

  Is Old Tom responsible for the first cup?

  How would the game be different if the cup was bigger/smaller?

  Anthony

1. No.  The first holes to be lined with metal cups were at Crail. 
2.  Old Tom designed Crail but I don't know if he came up with the idea.
3. I don't know.

[Ronald Montesano]

they where rain water down pipes no sewer.

What strange tongue is this?  Or better yet, in what has Melvyn's tongue been a-bathing?  Do we try to unscramble the words?  All right, let's try ...wait, there's no verb!!!  "Rain water pipes down no sewer where they."  How's that?

[RSLivingston_III]

Actually, Tom Stewart (of St.A.) is credited with inventing the "hole tin". There are ads for it in 19th century mags.

[Kalen Braley]

Cup...you say cup....
check this out....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV831oPwG8M

now that's a cup

OMG,

The writers had a field day with this segment and thier various "references"

[Gary_Mahanay]

I guess I'm not real surprised that this did not get any more discussion than it did because this part of golf history was not well documented.  Melvyn was going to look into this one time but I never heard anything back.  But does anybody know when and where the first putting green cup was used and when and where the 4.25" standard cup diameter used?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Gary,
The hole size was standardized in 1891.

[Jim_Kennedy]

....and to add to Ralph's post about the first example of a "Hole Tin", a man named George Bussey developed a 'cup' that prevented the ball from falling into the dirt at the bottom of the hole and held the flagstick in an upright position. This was in 1894

The first hole-cutting tool was invented or used at Musselburgh in 1829. It was 4.25" but it took 60+ years to make that the standard.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Gary

Sorry, but if you look at Home of GolfTV web link http://www.homeofgolf.tv/2009/07/14/musselburgh-old-course-golf-club-%e2%80%93-episode-10/ you will get the answer to your question on size.

Melvyn

[Gary_Mahanay]

Jim, Melvyn,

Thanks for the information.  I cut the cups everyday at the course where I work.  That is really incredible that the first cup cutter was developed in 1829 in Musselburgh from what looks to be the down spout of the clubhouse gutter that happened to be 4.25" in diameter.  And equally incredible is that it took over 60 years for that to become the standard diameter. 

So does this mean that some of the Open Championships from 1860 to 1890 may have been played to cups not of 4.25" in diameter?

Melvyn, does any of your research show that Old Tom used this "Robert Grey hole cutting machine"  while at Preswick or St. Andrews?

Don't know what Robert Grey's 1829 version looked like but it seems to me that of all of golf and golf course maintenance's technological advances, the cup cutter is still a pretty simple instrument.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Gary,
The first patent for a "hollow auger to cut holes" was given to "A. Cole" in 1897.

[Gary_Mahanay]

Jim,

Sounds like greenkeepers pre 1890 or so had their own way of cutting holes.  And unless they all got together and said lets get something close to 4.25" in diameter they were probably not all 4.25"  in diameter.  But with what the condition of the putting surfaces would have been back then, I doubt you could tell the difference between a 4.25 and 4.5" diameter cup.  So that answers my question about the early Open Championships.

I'm very interested in the early maintenance practices and the early maintenance equipment.  Where can I find the information such as what you came up with.

Gary

[Melvyn Morrow]

Gary

The first course to use the hole liners is recorded as Balcomie. According to reports it was Old Tom who actually decided to use these liners first which must not be confused with the hole cutter which was based upon the diameter of the Musselburgh drain pipe. It also ties in with Crail where he laid out the course as well as made modifications.

Melvyn

PS I think the date was circa 1894-5

[Kalen Braley]

Gary

The first course to use the hole liners is recorded as Balcomie. According to reports it was Old Tom who actually decided to use these liners first which must not be confused with the hole cutter which was based upon the diameter of the Musselburgh drain pipe. It also ties in with Crail where he laid out the course as well as made modifications.

Melvyn

PS I think the date was circa 1894-5

Melyvn,

Thats interesting information.  Makes one wonder how different the game and scores would be today if the diameter of that pipe had just happened to be 6 or 7 inches or something like that?

Kalen

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kalen

 6" or 7 " Christ, Kalen you would be a scratch player, I would never miss a put, Old Tom would never have been called the Miser of the Put due to his sometimes inability to hole the ball and the professionals would not even aim at the hole believing it to be a small shallow bunker.

Melvyn

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen

 6" or 7 " Christ, Kalen you would be a scratch player, I would never miss a put, Old Tom would never have been called the Miser of the Put due to his sometimes inability to hole the ball and the professionals would not even aim at the hole believing it to be a small shallow bunker.

Melvyn

Thats what i'm saying Melyvnn...

But I suspect it wouldn't help me very much because my biggest drawback to playing the game usually comes in the form of my inability to get the ball on the green in a decent amount of strokes!!    

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kalen then get off the cart and stop rolling them and start playing golf

Melvyn

[Pete_Pittock]

Gary,
The first patent for a "hollow auger to cut holes" was given to "A. Cole" in 1897.

I am reading "St. Andrews Home of Golf' by James K Robertson. On page 71 he writes "when the first patent hole cutter was invented about 1869 by Charles Anderson, Fettykil, he presented it as a tribute to (Old Tom) Morris.

[RSLivingston_III]

  Is it true that the first cups were made from sewer pipes at St Andrews?

  Is Old Tom responsible for the first cup?

  How would the game be different if the cup was bigger/smaller?

  Anthony

The info i came across, said that Morris went to a local blacksmith to have some liners made to support the deteriorating walls of the holes.
His entire career, Tom Stewart advertised himself as the maker of the hole liners of the Old course.
Thats not to say that Stewart didn't start with drainpipe material before modifying it to meet his needs.
I was unable to locate any of the origonal liners or even any from the following decades.

[Garland Bayley]

they where rain water down pipes no sewer.

What strange tongue is this?  Or better yet, in what has Melvyn's tongue been a-bathing?  Do we try to unscramble the words?  All right, let's try ...wait, there's no verb!!!  "Rain water pipes down no sewer where they."  How's that?

how slow do you have to be to not figure out the tyop?

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