The Donald...

[Jud_T]

To all,

I apologize for my ranting and raving about Mr. Trump.  The guy just rubs me the wrong way.  I know some Winged Foot members who rue the day they let him join, but that's beside the point...I honestly hope he proves me to be the fool by building a great course and a tasteful development and helps out the locals. Again, I sincerely apologize for diverting the conversation into the gutter on such a great site....

[Alister Matheson]

I personally am all for the development appart from the compulsory house buying nonsense ! JUST USE THE LAND YOU HAVE .

Ally
I know CB have been very vocal in their backing for this development .

But would you care to share why you personally are all for it ?

I am all for the development using the existing land they have because imo it will be of great benefit for the whole of Aberdeenshire which desperatley needs quality accomadation for tourisim and buisness.

[Niall C]

Greenkeepers from the area got a guided tour on the links last week and there is no doubt the land is fantastic .There is  a lot stabilizing to do on the back 9 ,the routing winds its way through the dunes  and you can get a good feel for some of the shots that will be required .The general impression we were left with was that it was a traditional  links they were passionate about building minimal earth moving revetted bunkers bent /fescue ect ect.

One thing that amazed me was the size of the dunes and as a lot of the holes are routed through them it feels very secluded.

The plan hopefully will be for us greenkeepers to get a look at the different stages of construction in the next couple of years .

I personally am all for the development appart from the compulsory house buying nonsense ! JUST USE THE LAND YOU HAVE .

Ally

Interesting comments. Obviously your comment on ther Compulsory Purchase issue is a no brainer. How they can claim now that they need the houses to be included within their development when they have already pushed the button on the project. Hopefully that will be that put to bed and those residents can live in peace.

I was interested in your comments about the scale of the dunes and how the course is routed through them. My objections to this project apart from the conduct of our politicians, has been the development of the SSSI and the shifting dune system. Did you get a sense of how much of the dune system/SSSI is going to be used and whether it could have been avoided ?

Niall

[Sean_A]

Greenkeepers from the area got a guided tour on the links last week and there is no doubt the land is fantastic .There is  a lot stabilizing to do on the back 9 ,the routing winds its way through the dunes  and you can get a good feel for some of the shots that will be required .The general impression we were left with was that it was a traditional  links they were passionate about building minimal earth moving revetted bunkers bent /fescue ect ect.

One thing that amazed me was the size of the dunes and as a lot of the holes are routed through them it feels very secluded.

The plan hopefully will be for us greenkeepers to get a look at the different stages of construction in the next couple of years .

I personally am all for the development appart from the compulsory house buying nonsense ! JUST USE THE LAND YOU HAVE .

Ally

Interesting comments. Obviously your comment on ther Compulsory Purchase issue is a no brainer. How they can claim now that they need the houses to be included within their development when they have already pushed the button on the project. Hopefully that will be that put to bed and those residents can live in peace.

I was interested in your comments about the scale of the dunes and how the course is routed through them. My objections to this project apart from the conduct of our politicians, has been the development of the SSSI and the shifting dune system. Did you get a sense of how much of the dune system/SSSI is going to be used and whether it could have been avoided ?

Niall

Niall

For purposes of SSSI, the dune system will effectively be destroyed.  There is no way the development and the dune system can co-exist without significant damage to the dune system.  That said, there is absolutely no point in building a course near this system without going into it.  The site of the dunes is what will give this course a chance to be truly great. 

Ciao

[Alister Matheson]

The course has 2 loops of 9 and its the the back 9 where all the shifting sand is and having walked the land its hard to see how they could have avoided going into that area without spoiling the balance of the course IMO.




Thats the 14th above


11th par 3 played towards the sea

[Brian Phillips]

Ally,

With that amount of dune sand that will not be greatly rich in nutrients they are going to have to install one of Scotland's best irrigation systems don't you think?

I wonder how much soil will have to mixed into the sand to get a sound germination base?

[Alister Matheson]

Ally,

With that amount of dune sand that will not be greatly rich in nutrients they are going to have to install one of Scotland's best irrigation systems don't you think?

I wonder how much soil will have to mixed into the sand to get a sound germination base?

Brian,

    Yes they will have to add a small amount of topsoil to aid germination and nutrient retention but no drainage worries !
    A standard irrigation system will do as the traditional links grasses normally used are drought tolerant .




Royal Dornoch drought tolerant !

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks for those pictures, Ally.  The site is awesome, and Hawtree and Company have been given the opportunity of a lifetime.  Good luck to them.  Based only on the quality of the land, I cannot think any of the leading GCAs in the world who would not have salivated at that opportunity.

Vis a vis the Dornoch picture, was that in 2004, when the course was playing at its peak?

For those who seem to misunderestimate the place of Marram grass in great links, look to the far left cresent of Ally's picture--that shoreline is hedd in place by naturally occurring marram grass.  As I have said before, the only reason the Menie site was designated an SSSI (Site of Special Scientific Interest) was because of the shifting dunes.  As Marty Bonnar has documented above, there are many more of them in Scotland (some shifting as we speak on the beach in Ally's picture of Dornoch).  Once the project was given the go-ahead, the shifting dunes were destined to be shiftless, as Sean has rightly noted.  It's a loss to a very small number of Geomorphology PhD candidates and a few dog walkers, but now much more.  Get over it, dune huggers!

Thanks again, and all the best

Rich

[Brian_Ewen]

Ally
Thanks for posting the pics.

Any idea what hole the first pic. is ?

[Brian Phillips]

Brian,

Yes they will have to add a small amount of topsoil to aid germination and nutrient retention but no drainage worries ! A standard irrigation system will do as the traditional links grasses normally used are drought tolerant.

I know they are tolerant but it still needs a kick start!  I presume they will hydroseed the course but will need wall to wall irrigation to get it all going in my opinion.

[Brian_Ewen]

[Brian_Ewen]

[Brian Phillips]

How can you be so descriptive about a golf hole that is not yet built when it is being built on such pliable material that really if you are going to make something fantastic, you will not know at the present time how it will look?

[Niall C]

Sean

Obviously the the shifting dune system is going to be destroyed. Once you stabilise it it no longer can shift ! No need for rocket science there. And why exactly can't you build a course adjacent without going in ? Why exactly would there be no point to that. I might be wrong here but not all of what you saw in Ally's photo's was part of the shifting dune system, there is still good links ground to work with which isn't part of the SSSI.

Ally

Clearly you think that it will be a better course planting over the sand dunes, good for you. But the question asked was could they have routed a course without going into the SSSI ? Are you honestly saying they couldn't have, and a good one at that ?

Rich

We've had this discussion. We both know that since Old Tom was a boy, man has been fighting the elements to keep courses playable. Barriers have been created to stop coastal erosion, rough sandy ground patched over etc but come on, look at those photos, thats not a bit of sandy waste needing patched, its practically a desert. The scale of it is way bigger than what you are talking about elsewhere. Brings to mind that Joni Mitchell song about parking lots.

Niall   

[Jud_T]

I have to admit that the property looks awesome.  I wonder what other GCA's they interviewed? Did they feel they needed to go with a U.K. guy to help stem the inevitable tide of resistance?

[Brian_Ewen]

I have to admit that the property looks awesome.  I wonder what other GCA's they interviewed? Did they feel they needed to go with a U.K. guy to help stem the inevitable tide of resistance?

No Trump went with Martin Hawtree , because he is the R&A's preferred man at the moment .

[Rich Goodale]

Jud (and Brian)

Fazio Jr. was the first choice of The Donald, but as Brian said, once he figured that Hawtree was a better choice vis a vis his (probably stretch) goals of getting an Open, he dumped The Faz Fils.

Rich

[Adam Lawrence]

I must confess to being hugely conflicted about this project. As Brian P said, Martin Hawtree is one of the nicest men you will ever meet, and it is wonderful that, after his long career, he may finally have the opportunity to build on such an astonishing natural site. And as a Brit it is good to see that a UK architect has got the gig; watching Americans get the best projects in our country over and over again is galling ven though on an individual basis they are good people doing good work.  But Trump is an arse without doubt, and Scotland can do without his strand of bling, which goes against what golf in the country is about; plus my friends at the Golf Environment Organisation, whose views I trust, are foursquare against the course.

I am also pretty astonished they got permission to do this stabilisation work given that they have not yet even filed their detailed planning consent application.

Adam

[Chuck Brown]

Geeze, I never thought anybody with interests similar to mine would complain about another interesting links golf course being built.  

Can there be too many real links?  Is one more not a great idea?

When I saw the story with the shameless mention of building the world's greatest golf course, I laughed and immediately dug out the copy of the old early 1920's New York Times article thatI copied off a scanned image from GCA, in which it had been proclaimed that Charlie Macdonald was in the procees of building a course that would be "The Finest in the World" on Long Island (The 'National Golf Links.')

And it got me thinking; if C.B. were alive today, would he not be something very close to Donald Trump?  Obviously, spending two years with Old Tom and Young Tom, and being a good enough player to regularly reach the finals of the national amateur championship distiguishes C.B. from The Donald.  

Oh, also that part about him being the visionary father of American golf and a minor genius in golf course design...

But, in truth, C.B. had his own share of ego-driven p.r. disasters, and he was of the school that gave us Chicago architect Daniel Burnham of the same era, and indeed the same city as C.B.  And it was Burnham who said, "Make no small plans..."

My real gripe in all of this, is not the golf course at all -- It is the abomination of a 20 or 30-story hotel and casino tower.  That you won't be able to avoid, visually.  Where's a good eco-terrorist when you need one?

[Jonathan Webb]

Does anyone know what golf course construction company will be involved with this project?

Just Curious,

CW

[Sean_A]

Sean

Obviously the the shifting dune system is going to be destroyed. Once you stabilise it it no longer can shift ! No need for rocket science there. And why exactly can't you build a course adjacent without going in ? Why exactly would there be no point to that. I might be wrong here but not all of what you saw in Ally's photo's was part of the shifting dune system, there is still good links ground to work with which isn't part of the SSSI.

Ally

Clearly you think that it will be a better course planting over the sand dunes, good for you. But the question asked was could they have routed a course without going into the SSSI ? Are you honestly saying they couldn't have, and a good one at that ?

Rich

We've had this discussion. We both know that since Old Tom was a boy, man has been fighting the elements to keep courses playable. Barriers have been created to stop coastal erosion, rough sandy ground patched over etc but come on, look at those photos, thats not a bit of sandy waste needing patched, its practically a desert. The scale of it is way bigger than what you are talking about elsewhere. Brings to mind that Joni Mitchell song about parking lots.

Niall   

Niall

If one isn't going to go through dunes, one can build this course anywhere.  The dunes are what will give this course its chance for greatness and I believe this was rightly identified by Trump. 

Ciao

[Brian_Ewen]

Chuck
I am with you .

Johnathan
Read the thread .

[Paul_Turner]

I've been pretty critical of Hawtree's redesign work here, it's a mixed bag and I hope he doesn't redesign Muirfield.  But I think he'll do a good job with a virgin links site.

I played quite a lot of his older courses which are  basic and low budget from when there wasn't much going on in quality golf course construction (eg Little Hay).  

I think his big break was getting to redo his grandfather's  greens at Birkdale after the 1991 Open.  After that, he got a lot of plumb redesign jobs:  Dooks, Lahinch, Royal Melbourne, Carnoustie, Belvoir Park, Royal Dublin, Sunningdale, St George's Hill, Toronto,

When he has to construct them, I think I can pick out a Hawtree green pretty easily, nearly always raised, wavy greens with similar contours and a lot of chipping areas...Royal Dublin Lahinch and Birkdale are full of them.  This project should be different though.

[Brian Phillips]

I wouldn't say the greens at Lahinch are that wavy Paul.  This is a big problem when greens are designed on drawings and not on site with the architect and the shaper creating something together.

[Niall C]

Niall

If one isn't going to go through dunes, one can build this course anywhere.  The dunes are what will give this course its chance for greatness and I believe this was rightly identified by Trump. 

Ciao


Sean

Without wishing to kick this one to death, it is only a portion of the links which comprises a shifting dune system and is subject to the SSSI. There is plenty of interesting good links land with lots of undualtions with which to build with. Think Muirfield.

Chuck

Re your comment on the hotel, I found it kind of ironic that at the start of this whole saga, Trump campaigned to stop an off shore windfarm (theres true environmentalism for you) because it would spoil the view from the course.

Niall