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Tom MacWood

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2009, 06:10:49 AM »
I agree with your assessment...Tilly was at (or near) the top of his game with Baltusrol, Winged Foot, Philadelphia Cricket, San Francisco, Brook Hollow, Somerset Hills and others on his resume. He was also prolific writer. I'm not sure I'd characterize what Hochster was doing as hogging.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #76 on: October 30, 2009, 12:35:10 PM »
I had the pleasure of playing there last month. I found those same bones of great course. I like the changes being made as well. I found that same softness which detracts from the course to some. It is unfortunate but is the path taken by 90% ofthe designs in america. That makes days like a round at the Cal Club in August so special. The firm and fast conditions allow the course show its greatness.

Rick Wolffe

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #77 on: October 30, 2009, 09:52:01 PM »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2009, 06:45:39 AM »
Irrespective of the author, or authors, is it possible that Quaker Ridge was altered to mirror Winged Foot and Fenway ?

Winged Foot was crafted in 1923.
Fenway, just down the street in 1924

According to C&W, Quaker Ridge orginated in 1915, but had 9 holes redesigned and 9 holes added in 1926.

Does anyone who has played QR, WFW, WFE and F think that the architecture at QR departs from the architecture of the other three courses, or, that there's a continuity of design, so much so that the holes could be exchanged and interspersed and noone would know the difference ?

In other words, what's more accurate, the product in the ground or the newspaper and printed accounts ?

Tom MacWood

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2009, 08:46:53 AM »
Irrespective of the author, or authors, is it possible that Quaker Ridge was altered to mirror Winged Foot and Fenway ?

Winged Foot was crafted in 1923.
Fenway, just down the street in 1924

According to C&W, Quaker Ridge orginated in 1915, but had 9 holes redesigned and 9 holes added in 1926.

Does anyone who has played QR, WFW, WFE and F think that the architecture at QR departs from the architecture of the other three courses, or, that there's a continuity of design, so much so that the holes could be exchanged and interspersed and noone would know the difference ?

In other words, what's more accurate, the product in the ground or the newspaper and printed accounts ?

Pat
I do think there was pressure from rival Jewish clubs and its immediate neighbors. Century just built a new championship course designed by CH Alison and Fenway had a new course designed by Tilly. And then you have Winged Foot right around the corner. QR was just over 6000 yards and not considered a championship test when the course was remodeled in the mid-20s.

Adam_Messix

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #80 on: October 31, 2009, 09:09:34 AM »
Pat--

You ask a great question concerning Tillinghast and the courses that he is credited for in the Scarsdale/Mamaroneck area.  It's funny, but they each have their own distinctive styles to them, but yet they all seem to have the same sort of feel to them.  The similarity is in the scale in the courses were built.  If you were to play any two of the four Tillinghast courses in the same day you wouldn't notice it, but if you were to play say Apawamis in the morning and go to Quaker Ridge in the afternoon, the difference in scale will blow you away.  Apawamis is built on a reasonably small scale, even if the greens are pretty reasonable in size, Quaker Ridge is much large in size and scale, particularly in the bunkering.  The other three courses are built on the same scale. 

QR, WFW, WFE, and FGC all have their own unique styles among themselves, even though the green complexes at Winged Foot are pretty similar, it appears to me that Tilly did push the envelope on a bit more on the East with the 9th, 13-15, and 17th holes being an example.  Fenway is a bit hazy to me, but I remember it being quite hilly.  Quaker Ridge's greens are not as severe (with the possible exception of 16) as the other courses, but it's also a bit more honest a test from tee to green.


Rick Wolffe

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #81 on: October 31, 2009, 10:04:50 AM »
Is there an obvious reason why Tilly posted his original designs in the order they are listed...?




Tom MacWood

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #82 on: October 31, 2009, 08:42:54 PM »
Rick
Do you find it odd that courses like SFGC, Quaker Ridge and Newport are listed as original designs?

David Stamm

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #83 on: October 31, 2009, 08:52:34 PM »
So Tom, is it your contention that the present SFGC course is not an original AWT, but rather a redo of someone else's course? (Sorry, I should put this on the SFGC thread)
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom MacWood

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #84 on: October 31, 2009, 09:02:23 PM »
Yes.

TEPaul

Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2009, 09:10:27 PM »
"Pat
I do think there was pressure from rival Jewish clubs and its immediate neighbors."


Listen Tom MacWood and the rest of you, Pat Mucci, at this point, just may be my favorite person of Italian decent but I think I can tell you all seeing as what Patrick has been doing lately with joining golf clubs and whatever that Patrick may be seriously considering converting to Judaism, particularly if the Jewish clubs he's been joining recently agree to do architecturally what Patrick tells them they should do!  

And if he does I would have to say he's an even smarter guy than I have previously figured he was! After all what does religion have to do with anything if one can get some really cool old courses to do the right thing architecturally? ;)

Hey look, Patricio, if I was honest I'd probably have to admit I'm an atheist, but if I called myslelf an Episcopalian which I guess I'm supposed to be, what do you think the changes are I could join some of these Jewish clubs you've been joining as a Catholic? If you convert from Catholic to Judaism, I'll convert from atheism or Episcopalianism to Judaism. Do we have a deal?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 09:18:48 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #86 on: October 31, 2009, 09:24:24 PM »
"So Tom, is it your contention that the present SFGC course is not an original AWT, but rather a redo of someone else's course? (Sorry, I should put this on the SFGC thread)."


DavidS:

That is one I am looking forward to really seeing and hearing hashed out but the guy I'm looking to, at this point, is Sean Tully! I'm most interested to see and hear what he has to say after he does what he last said he would do----eg run his findings past the club first.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #87 on: October 31, 2009, 09:50:01 PM »
We know newspaper articles can be inaccurate, ;) , but this 1938 snippet from an Oakland Tribune article suggests SFGC was a rebuild by Tilly.  My guess is within 15 minutes of this posting one Phil Young will set the record straight!

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Rick Wolffe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #88 on: November 01, 2009, 07:24:30 AM »
hmm...this list is interesting to study...Tilly classified his design work into "Reconstructed and Extended Courses," "Examinations and Reports," "Eighteen Hole Designs", and 27 or 36 hole designs.

Was the amount of the original course that remained intact on the ground part of Mr. Tillinghast's classification rational?

Scarsdale is one worth studying, as we have the routing sketch that shows the new holes being integrated into the original holes.  Other courses like Quaker, have very little, if any, of the original nine hole course left.

In one of Tilly's first consultations with Quaker, before he was hired to take the course up to a quality 18 hole course, he examined the original course and wrote about the strengths and weaknesses of each of the original nine holes.  He wanted to be retained for design work and and may have been careful in his letter that he did not insult the golf course.  Some of the things are quite telling, he said "the fairways are much too wide, sixty yards would be quite enough at the widest point for any holes which exist at present.  The absent of a short hole struck me immediately..."  In summarizing, he also wrote "...the nine holes as they exist are not impressive"


Tom MacWood

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #89 on: November 01, 2009, 07:48:16 AM »

Rick
Do you find it odd that courses like SFGC, Quaker Ridge and Newport are listed as original designs?

TEPaul

Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #90 on: November 01, 2009, 08:36:25 AM »
RickW:


The heading on that list of Tillie's career inventory is actually pretty interesting the way it's worded.

A somewhat misleading example of what was said vs done is Philadelphia CC. He sure did "design" 36 holes there but only the one eighteen was built which apparently was not the same thing as either of his two eighteen hole designs for the club.

David Stamm

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #91 on: November 01, 2009, 09:17:46 AM »
Yes.


What do you have as evidence that AWT redid someone else's design at today's site?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom MacWood

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #92 on: November 01, 2009, 09:28:20 AM »
Guys

Clearing up the part about William Tucker, he merely wrote an article in praise of the golf course and those involved in designing it. Both mentions that i have are solid as the other article was written by Vincent Whitney just after the course opened. I have not mentioned who designed the course and will do so after sharing the info with the club. Not a game changer, just not Tilly.

There are some early photos of the course, and they have been hard to track down as one may imagine. The club did suffer from at least two fires that I know of, one that took out the bag room to the chagrin of the golfers. I'm trying to track down some club papers, but I have work, a growing family, and a soon to be new home that has my attention at the moment. I'm looking forward to what I may find.

Tully



David Stamm

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #93 on: November 01, 2009, 09:42:33 AM »
Thank you, Tom. I look forward to Sean revealing the info.


Another question. Is today's Presidio course actually one of the previous SFGC courses?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom MacWood

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #94 on: November 01, 2009, 10:42:41 AM »
David
I don't know the answer.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #95 on: November 01, 2009, 07:30:00 PM »
Irrespective of the author, or authors, is it possible that Quaker Ridge was altered to mirror Winged Foot and Fenway ?

Winged Foot was crafted in 1923.
Fenway, just down the street in 1924

According to C&W, Quaker Ridge orginated in 1915, but had 9 holes redesigned and 9 holes added in 1926.

Does anyone who has played QR, WFW, WFE and F think that the architecture at QR departs from the architecture of the other three courses, or, that there's a continuity of design, so much so that the holes could be exchanged and interspersed and noone would know the difference ?

In other words, what's more accurate, the product in the ground or the newspaper and printed accounts ?


Pat - As far as those 4 golf courses go, NO, in general I do not see a continuity of design. I think there are a few examples of specific holes where you can see this (ex. WFW #15 and QR #15). In my opinion the WF courses play much different than QR. WF requires genius ball striking with the long irons to hold the pushed-up green complexes, and of course a bigger challenge comes from the size of the contours in the greens there. QR is more about the placement of the drive, finding the right angle off the tee, and your second shot becomes much easier. QR's green complexes appear much more "natural", but are certainly no easy test. Fenway, I am not quite as familiar with (only been there once) but as I remember, the holes there seem to resemble QR a little more than WF.

I think the routing of QR may be the most important factor here, and the reason why hole by hole it definitely resembles a good number of Tilly courses, but as an overall piece of architecture, it remains so different... (and special!)

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #96 on: November 01, 2009, 08:00:50 PM »
My post #27 above clearly states that Tillinghast's 18 hole course opened in 1918:


The Metropolitan Golf Links was beset by financial problems,however. Baird and Hipwell underestimated the costs and consequently,on December 19,1915,a small successor group of former Quaker Ridge country Club members formed, and chaired by Otto Elsass. At a meeting held in the Hotel Majestic on January 5,1916,the Quaker Ridge Golf Club was founded with 28 original members. Most notable  of these was William Rice Hochster,who was added to the organizational committee at this time. The new group purchased the Quaker Ridge Country Club's lease on Febrauary 18, 1916, and legally incorporated on February 21, by this time boasting 92 members. Encouraged by positive recommendations from the leading architect A.W. Tillinghast and Baltusrol professional George Low, they quickly purchased the land they were leasing from Bradford Rhodes for the sum of $175,000.00. Tillinghast then proceeded build 11 new golf holes,while at the same time radically revising seven of the old holes. The new 18 hole course opened for play on June1, 1918, and is now generally regarded as a Tillinghast "original." For several years the course played to a par of 70 at 6173 yards.

When the time came in 1924 for a major revision of the course, Hochster was there to carry out Tillinghast's plans. He lived in a house just to the right of the first green. That change came after the club purchased 28 acres from Martha LaFurgy for $35,000.00. The changes that Tillinghast recommended and Hochster implemented in 1924 brought the course into basically its present configuration. Four new holes(3,4,1213) were built at that time,and two others altered-the first green was moved from behind the fairway bunker, and the second,originally the third, was given its dogleg. At the same time, four holes were abandoned. The old second hole was a short par3 near the tennis facility that played to a punchbowl green. The fourth at that thime played from behind the 14th tee over the 13th green,to the present fourth green,directly over the "pit"  to the left of that green today, but which in those days extended completely across the "front" of the green. The old 12th hole was was a par3 to the right of the present 11th green,playing over a creek. And the 13th then was a short par4 that made a sharp turn to the right near its green,which was situated out in front of today's 14th tee.

The above is from an article in Met Golfer that was sent to me by the MGA historian a few years ago. I'm trying to contact him again to find out who wrote the article.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 08:03:35 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #97 on: November 01, 2009, 10:12:05 PM »
Steve - If 13 was a short par 4, who designed the par 3 Reef hole?

Rick Wolffe

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #98 on: November 02, 2009, 08:19:18 AM »
Here is the construction cost report thru Jan 1, 1918...hmm...wonder what was in "Services of Experts" line?






JMEvensky

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Re: Quaker Ridge GC (Tillinghast) in Scarsdale, NY
« Reply #99 on: November 02, 2009, 03:45:14 PM »

Hey look, Patricio, if I was honest I'd probably have to admit I'm an atheist, but if I called myslelf an Episcopalian which I guess I'm supposed to be, what do you think the changes are I could join some of these Jewish clubs you've been joining as a Catholic? If you convert from Catholic to Judaism, I'll convert from atheism or Episcopalianism to Judaism. Do we have a deal?

At your ages,you're REALLY not going to like the bris.

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