Interested in opinions on The Biarritz style at Yale and Fishers

[Jim_Kennedy]

By the way, thanks for posting the photo.

[Bradley Anderson]

Thought you were with the kids  

We were just heading out for a hike and my boys told me, dad you have to put that photo up there. Pretty funny.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Art Linkletter made millions off boys like yours!    Have a good aftenoon.

[TEPaul]

"Alright, I found that photo. Looks like that hogsback was exactly where Whigham said it was. HA!"


Bradley:

Thanks for posting that photo of the ninth of Piping Rock. But, "I'll be damned and go to Hell," if you're assuming that big wide perpendicular dark green area at the front of the fairway area before the swale is the "hogs-back" feature or some "hogs-back" feature on that fairway, it isn't. That is the front section of a big wide basically cop-bunker!

There is probably 35-40 yards of fairway area from that bunker to the beginning of the swale. If someone hit the top of that bunker their ball is not going to get deflected either right or left into flanking bunkers as if there was some hogsback actually ON that fairway---it's more likely to just stop dead in the longish grass on the top of that bunker that's about 50 yards from the green!

By the way, that big wide cross bunker about 35-40 yards before the swale isn't there any more.  

So much for this hogs-back discussion at Piping Rock's biarritz.  That photo is from Devereau Emmet's review article of Piping Rock in Golf Illustrated in 1913.

Brad:
I've got an old aerial of Piping on my computer or in my files. If I can get it to you I will, unless of course this thread's Piping biarritz discussion gets as irrelevent and tenuous as the discussion on here trying to prove Merion's 17th was a biarrtiz or biarritz concept.   

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Bradley, terrific photo.  Now for your next trick, can you give us an aerial from the same era?


I wonder if the course ever "achieve[d] the distinction of being one of the best holes of its length in America?"  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom Paul,
First, you should go back and read Whigham's description, it's amazing how neatly he described what's on the grouind in the photo.

Second, you ought to try accepting the fact that you have just been proven incorrect about this whole hogback question, quit whining about it, and take your medicine like a man. Now you are starting to look like the old woman who couldn't accept the truth about her golf game when Snead presented it to her.

[TEPaul]

"Second, you ought to try accepting the fact that you have just been proven incorrect about this whole hogback question, quit whining about it, and take your medicine like a man. Now you are starting to look like the old woman who couldn't accept the truth about her golf game when Snead presented it to her."

Jim Kennedy:

Can you point out specifically the "hogs-back" feature on that substantial fairway that reputedly kicks the ball right or left into those flanking hazards?

But first let me ask you a couple of questions:

1. How many times have you ever seen Piping Rock?
2. How many times have you ever seen its biarritz?
3. How many times have you played that hole?
4. How many times have you tried to land a ball short of that swale on that fairway section?
5. How many times have you ever seen anyone try to do that?

Thanks in advance for your cooperation in answering those questions accurately and honestly!

[Jim_Kennedy]

There is probably 35-40 yards of fairway area from that bunker to the beginning of the swale.
In the modern aerial there is just about thirty five yards from the top of the hog back to the front of the green.
Whigham was off a few yards, you're way off.

By the way, that big wide cross bunker about 35-40 yards before the swale isn't there any more.  
It sure is Tom, unless they removed it in the last year or so. I just measured the distances using the one from Bing aerials.

So much for this hogs-back discussion at Piping Rock's biarritz.  
For you Tom, I'm sure it will be now that you've been proven wrong.

[Jim_Kennedy]

p.s. Badgering me won't make you correct, but if it makes you feel better keep going.

[George_Bahto]

I think you guys may be “misinterpreting” what CBM called a Hog’s-Back in his original description in Scotland’s Gift.

I think (he and Whigham) when referring to Hog’s-Back meant THE ENTIRE APPROACH AREA SHORT OF THE SWALE as being the “Hog’s-Back.

I think, if had his way, he would have (and may have) built these frontal sections (now turned green on many courses) with a definitive falling off to the side bunkering but if they were like that, I doubt if many “push-shot” balls would have bounded straight forward (as intended).

I have a green blue of a Biarritz green drawn by Charlie Banks that show two long diagonal mounds, about a foot high, in the frontal fairways - these to deflect, as well.

The Biarritz green at the Knoll still has these two great features and I do not remember any other greens with these two deflection mounds.

The frontal bunker (Piping Rock and on other courses) were to simulate the Bay of Biscay carry.

Again the Knoll has this bunker intact - I just restored it a year or so ago. The carry at The Knoll over that bunker is about 135-yds ...... SIMULATION OR REPRESENTATIVE the key words

aside: Charlie - Hog’s Back!!  Not a good choice of words.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Thanks George. I stand corrected.

[TEPaul]

Thanks GeorgeB and nice to speak with you today about this:

I hope your explanation finally puts to rest this suggestion by a few on here that Piping Rock's biarritz hole ever had or has some "hogs-back" feature that ever cast a golf ball landing on that front fairway section sideways from the center or whateer into those flanking bunkers (actually only a depression on the left).

As far as accurately interpreting what some statements put on here by CBM, Whigam or even Travis meant, that is not something I want to speculate on----I only know it didn't exist at Piping Rock and it sure didn't exist on the 17th at Merion.

So, I hope this is the end of it. Again, thanks.


"p.s. Badgering me won't make you correct, but if it makes you feel better keep going."

Well, I hope you don't feel that getting George to explain to you the architectural realities of Piping Rock's biarritz is badgering you.

By the way, have you ever tried to land a ball on the front section of Piping Rock's biarritz and run it onto the green? Have you ever seen anyone try to do that? Just some pretty basic questions which I hope you don't think are badgering you considering what you've said on this thread.

[Bradley Anderson]

Now wait second here. I've castrated hogs with my uncle Louis, so I think I know a hogsback when I see one, and that raised up ground in front of the fairway sure looks like a hogsback to me.

[TEPaul]

Brad:

Did you and Uncle Lou castrate any approximately 30 yard wide cross bunkers?  

If so maybe the tops of them do look like hogs backs when they get castrated. Do you think Charlie and Whigs invented hogs or at least the golf architectural concept of them or their backs too?

[Bradley Anderson]

Jim,

I admit that I am biased by the fact that the only biarritz I have played is #6 at Shoreacres. On that hole there is very little elevation difference between the tee and the green. The tee sits just high enough to command a view of what is before you. The trough sits two feet lower than the green. And the green sits about two feet above grade. But now if my memory serves me right, the trough is cut in to the grade a half foot or so with a place for water to drain to the left side. In either case, however you do the math, the entire hole sits remarkably close to grade.

The engineering of that trough is critical to the success of the hole. At least that's what I think.

The biarritz hole is a challenging hole to build because the trough has to drain in order for the hole to work. But if you have to raise the whole structure up artifically, I think you are compromising the design intent, because of how the raised surface doesn't receive the trajectory of the ball as well as the green that is closer to grade.

Bradley, I totally disagree with your premise, as does the architecture at FI, especially when you factor in the slope/grade of the putting surface and fronting terrain.  Biarritz greens raised above the tee don't offer, incrementally, that difficult of an approach, versus a Biarritz where the tee and the green are at the same elevation.
 
In addition, most golfers don't have the fire power to hit to the center of the back tier.

Patrick,

To be clear, I am suggesting that an uphill biarritz is harder than a downhill biarritz. Would you not agree? Let me guess--you probably won't agree.

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom,

True story. My uncle Less had the nickname Killer, on account of his fierce temper, and what he did to a bully on the playground after he caught the bully picking on a smaller kid.

Well my uncle Louis, the hog farmer, and my uncle Less were playing basketball in the barn where they had a hoop. Louis was taunting uncle Less pretty hard---this was when they were boys--so Less goes in the house and gets his shot-gun. My grandmother asked Less "where you going with the gun?" Less says "I'm goin' to shoot Louis".

The crazy thing about that story is my grandmother didn't say "no Less, you put that gun back right now". She just opens the window of the house and yells out to the barn "run Louis.....Killer's got a gun!"

So that was my uncle Louis that I used to help with his hogs. And actually they were very small when they were castrated. You wanna talk about some high pitched squealing....wow.

But seriously, I defer to George on any of these issues. Yet still, hogsback is not the term that I would use to describe the area in front of the biarritz trough. 

[TEPaul]

"Bradley, I totally disagree with your premise,"

Bradley:

Does Patrick Mucci ever do anything on here other than disagree with everyone and anyone's premise?

Talking about shotguns---one time on Long Island there were about a thousand starlings flying around in front of the house on what was called Valentine Farm and my grandmother who was a quite thin woman but what a shot she was goes down to the gun closet in the den, takes out a 4-10 shotgun, walks halfway up the stairs and opens the massive window halfway up the stairs and fires off a couple of shots at the starlings with the shotgun on her hip just like John Wayne in the movies.

I think my mother and father and everyone else in the house thought the revolution had begun.

[George_Bahto]

here is a portion of a C Banks blueprint showing the two deflection "mounds" ("spines") on the frontal section

I'd love to hear from anyone who still has some semblance of them on the Biarritz green

- perhaps Fishers Island? Donnie Beck??

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thanks GeorgeB and nice to speak with you today about this:

I hope your explanation finally puts to rest this suggestion by a few on here that Piping Rock's biarritz hole ever had or has some "hogs-back" feature that ever cast a golf ball landing on that front fairway section sideways from the center or whateer into those flanking bunkers (actually only a depression on the left).

TEPaul, I don't recollect anyone claiming that any feature would deflect a ball sideways.
George Bahto has basically confirmed everything I stated about the "Hog's Back" feature and Biarritzes.

As far as accurately interpreting what some statements put on here by CBM, Whigam or even Travis meant, that is not something I want to speculate on----I only know it didn't exist at Piping Rock and it sure didn't exist on the 17th at Merion.

Merion's topography on # 17 is vastly different from # 9 at Piping Rock.

When I next visit Piping Rock, I will pay special attention to the flanks of the first tier on the 9th hole.
I'd be willing to bet that they're beveled near the edges, diverting balls down into the bunkers and rough below the fairway level.

Well, I hope you don't feel that getting George to explain to you the architectural realities of Piping Rock's biarritz is badgering you.

I thought I explained the architectural realities before George 

By the way, have you ever tried to land a ball on the front section of Piping Rock's biarritz and run it onto the green?
Have you ever seen anyone try to do that?
Just some pretty basic questions which I hope you don't think are badgering you considering what you've said on this thread.

As I stated earlier, not all Biarritzes are created equal, or in a cookie cutter mold.
When I described the swales found in Biarritzes, I stated that some had mild depths, medium depths and extreme depths.
Piping Rock falls into the latter category, thus, the running shot, unless low and hot, has difficulty negotiating the swale and arriving on the putting surface of the back tier.

That process, of running the ball on the first tier, down and up the swale to the back tier is largely dependent upon maintainance.
Without irrigation that process is made easier.
With irrigation, the first tier and swale must be tightly mowed (fairway or green) in order to allow for that process.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I admit that I am biased by the fact that the only biarritz I have played is #6 at Shoreacres. On that hole there is very little elevation difference between the tee and the green. The tee sits just high enough to command a view of what is before you. The trough sits two feet lower than the green. And the green sits about two feet above grade. But now if my memory serves me right, the trough is cut in to the grade a half foot or so with a place for water to drain to the left side. In either case, however you do the math, the entire hole sits remarkably close to grade.

The engineering of that trough is critical to the success of the hole. At least that's what I think.

The biarritz hole is a challenging hole to build because the trough has to drain in order for the hole to work. But if you have to raise the whole structure up artifically, I think you are compromising the design intent, because of how the raised surface doesn't receive the trajectory of the ball as well as the green that is closer to grade.

Bradley, I totally disagree with your premise, as does the architecture at FI, especially when you factor in the slope/grade of the putting surface and fronting terrain.  Biarritz greens raised above the tee don't offer, incrementally, that difficult of an approach, versus a Biarritz where the tee and the green are at the same elevation.
 
In addition, most golfers don't have the fire power to hit to the center of the back tier.

Patrick,

To be clear, I am suggesting that an uphill biarritz is harder than a downhill biarritz.

In what sense ?
In running the ball from the front tier to the back tier ?  On that I'd disagree

In being able to carry the ball deeper into the green ?  On that I'd agree.

Would you not agree?

Yes and No.
As I stated, you have to be function specific.
My response to you was in the context of running the ball along the front tier, through the swale, onto the back tier.
On downhill Biarritzes, that's almost impossible.

Let me guess--you probably won't agree.

That's right, and wrong 

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

I think The Knoll contains some terrific template holes, perhaps even to the degree that some represent the ultimate evolution of some of the templates.

The 3rd hole, the Redan and the 13th hole, the Biarritz both have noticeable spines or contours within the putting surfaces.

I fell in love with both holes the first time I played them.

The 13th was always more of a challenge because it required a longer, more accurate shot, without the architecture correcting marginal shots, as a Redan can do.

I believe that automated irrigation systems ruined or diminished the architectural intent on Biarritzes.
With the basic footpad of a Biarritz being elevated, that footpad tended to be dryer, thus accomodating the running or low tee shot.
The moment automated irrigation systems were introduced it changed the play of the hole, making it far more aerial.

While it took a long, long while, I think clubs with Biarritzes finally came to the conclusion that the front tier and swale had to be mowed to tighter heights in order to restore the original architectural intent, in terms of playability.

When properly maintained, a Biarritz is a hole that's exciting, challenging and fun to play.

George, the thing about # 13 at The Knoll is that just getting on the back putting surface doesn't guarantee a par.
The contouring in the putting surface, call it a spine or a horseshoe like contour, makes two putting, when you're on the opposite side of the contour, very difficult, so, just hitting the green in regulation is just the begining of the examination.

[TEPaul]

"Well, I hope you don't feel that getting George to explain to you the architectural realities of Piping Rock's biarritz is badgering you."


"I thought I explained the architectural realities before George.   "


Pat:

If you did I guess I must have missed it.   The first statement was from me to Jim Kennedy anyway who seemed to be saying there was some kind of "hogs-back" feature on that fairway section on Piping Rock's biarritz. I just wanted to mention to him that I hope he doesn't think it was badgering him that I got George Bahto to explain to him that there really is no hogs-back feature on that front fairway section at Piping Rock. I only say that because after that photo of the biarritz at Piping in 1913 was posted by Bradley, Kennedy was telling me I should admit like a man that I was incorrect all along and some other petty bullshit that is part and parcel of some of his responses to me lately on this website.  

Patrick, since you are the guy who seems to like to quote C.B. Macdonald's remarks on here so often that to really know a course one pretty much needs to see it and play it in all kinds of conditions and wind and weather etc, why don't YOU ask Kennedy how many times he has played Piping Rock's biarritz or even if he's ever seen the place? I mention that to you and ask you to ask him about that because I already asked him the straight-forward question on here a couple of times and he seems to be avoiding it for some reason. Do you have any idea why that would be?   

[Bradley Anderson]

I've always felt that Patrick's knowledge and life experiences are under-utilized on here. Instead of provoking him with our stupid statements we should be asking him questions.

Here's one for you Patrick: what was that 8th hole at Lido REALLY like when you played it?

[Jim_Kennedy]

TEPaul,
I've already accepted what George said, and that's a pretty interesting drawing of those deflecting ridges that he posted.

If playing Piping Rock's Biarritz since the '50s was relevant to the discussion you'd have a point, but it wasn't, so you don't. The discussion was about the configuration of a golf hole as it was described by Whigham in 1916, not in 1956 when you started playing it. For someone who says they are as familiar with Piping Rock's Biarritz as you say that you are, I don't know how you could have made  the statement, as you did, that the front bunker doesn't exist any longer. A quick look at any modern aerial shows that it does. That pretty much dispatches much of your rationale for 'playing knowledge' when talking about holes in their proper era, unless of course, you were playing it in 1916. 

You always seem to be the fellow who talks about taking things of an architectural nature in context, I guess it didn't suit your purpose this time. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've always felt that Patrick's knowledge and life experiences are under-utilized on here.
Instead of provoking him with our stupid statements we should be asking him questions.

Here's one for you Patrick: what was that 8th hole at Lido REALLY like when you played it?

It's REALLY like a 404 yard par 4, slight dogleg right, bunkers right off the tee, with a narrow green of 19 yards and a depth of 35 yards with flanking bunkers, with a good deal of wind to contend with..

Hope that helps.

P.S.  I never get provoked by "stupid" questions, there's too many of them to get excited about.