Interested in opinions on The Biarritz style at Yale and Fishers

[George_Bahto]

It's a pretty good walk Pat -  - then there was a change in where the driving range is

The present 1st hole was the original 2nd becasue they moved the clubhouse

[Patrick_Mucci]

George,

Where was the original clubhouse.

One would think that it had to be along the road leading to the golf course.
I recall seeing an old aerial of the original course but can't recall the location of the clubhouse.

Wasn't there a hole above the Redan, going from the water side toward the center of the property ?

Is it possible, that the cross bunker seen in the old photo, was at the back of the green, and not at the front of the green ?
And, that the hole/green was reoriented by 1965 ?

[George_Bahto]

I think the original clubhouse was situated down by the 7-green area, near along the water

in the 30's a plan was drawn showing 5 different (possible) locations for a new clubhouse

That old long-time super (talented) was Fred Emineger



Note: originally on the first Raynor plan, there was a cape hole entirely in the lagoon (the lagoon was to be much larger)  ....  a real cape hole!

the 6th hole was once an optional fairway hole

Pat: cross bunker? on the Biarritz, I guess you mean ......... no it was on the approach side of the green -

also someone asked about a club history:  thee was one dated 1914-1989 by John Field

[Niall C]

Marion Hollins had this to say when planning the Women's National Golf and Tennis Club, circa 1923:

"To get a course on the lines I have outlined it was necessary to agree on a standardization which would permit a good average woman player to get home in two shots on most holes. I held a conference with several persons who were vitally interested and we all agreed that if an average carry for Miss Alexa Stirling's shots could be arrived at a good working basis as to this distance would be arrived at. It turned out that Miss Stirling's drives, over a series of tests, averaged about one hundred and seventy-five yards carry and so this has been struck as the mean average in laying the hazards in front of tecs. By that I do not mean that all carries on the direct line to the green are of that length. That would be poor judgment. Mr. Emmet has just taken that yardage as the point in the fairway where a ball would drop if the tee shot was hit properly. Of course, in many instances generous leeway has been made for the slightly shorter hitters or for shots which were just a little off. Also on every hole there are one or more alternate lines of play besides that of the direct line to the green. This permits the shorter or cannier player to attempt a safer line of direction, although usually it costs an extra stroke to do so."

Harold Hilton explained her game/distance like this:
"There are not a few women players who outdrive her by yards. There are some few who play longer brassies.There are still fewer who play longer iron shots."

I take that to mean she wasn't a slouch, but not the longest, which is why Hollins used her as model.

In the article below there is a quote on the second page saying that "Miss Vare's drives went 220 yards" which seems to include roll. I included it because of the wonderful photo of the 'Short', replete w/the horseshoe still intact.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1922/gi176i.pdf

 

Jim

I think I'm right in saying that Alexa Stirling was the British ladies Champion (amateur) so it would seem illogical that Marion Hollins was using her as a template for the average lady golfer.

Niall

[Jim_Kennedy]

Niall,
The paragraph I posted were the exact words written by Marion Hollins:
"To get a course on the lines I have outlined it was necessary to agree on a standardization which would permit a good average woman player to get home in two shots on most holes. I held a conference with several persons who were vitally interested and we all agreed that if an average carry for Miss Alexa Stirling's shots could be arrived at a good working basis as to this distance would be arrived at."
This was at the time when Emmet was designing the Women's Nat'l. G&TC. She may not have represented the average of every woman who was playing the game at that time, but MH saw her as the mean for her purposes. Plus, there is the description by HH, saying that there were "not a few women players who outdrive her by yards". Hilton then gives sterling praise to the other facets of Stirling's game, which made up for her lack of disrance when compared to other women amateurs of the era.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

The beach club facility is next to the 7th tee. 

I wonder if anyone has an original or old scorecard.
That might help in locating the original clubhouse.

If # 8 was # 1 and # 7 # 18 that would seem to build a strong argument for it's location east of the current beach club.
And, there's a road leading to that area.

CC of Fairfield's Redan is quite interesting.
Unfortunately, I find their "bottle" hole a little disappointing.
Perhaps the flat nature of the hole contributes to that.

Some club history books are lacking in the area of architecture and architectural history.
Many seem socially oriented, which is a shame because it's the old "golden age" courses many find so fascinating, the ones that have passed the test of time.

[Jim_Kennedy]

http://cslib.cdmhost.com/custom/aerials.php

Pat,
Here is the 1934 aerial. In the top right hand portion of the screen there is a box that says "search all collections". In that box enter 05490 to see most of the course, including a large complex of buildings at the top of the course, and 05491 that gives the little bit missing from the bottom in the other aerial.

Looks like two possible places, at the top of the course, and over on the right side, although that may be maintenance.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

That's a pretty neat resource.

Do you have the numbers for Yale, Shorehaven and other courses in CT.

I wonder if other states have archived their aerials and made them available to the public.

I would imagine the club history book that George references would help locate the clubhouse.

It's hard to imagine it not being on the road where the current clubhouse sits, or the two roads that border the course and the water.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
Here you go. There have been a few courses added to the list but everything of CBM/SR/CB appears on this version. If Tamarack isn't on the list its number is 04045.  Happy hunting. 

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32030.msg628589/

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I'm pretty sure some other states have done much the same thing. It was no mean feat scouring the whole state, identifying known courses and also having to identify unknown courses. 
I think the best thing to come out of this list was openly sharing it with anyone who wanted to see it. Too much information is  kept away from interested parties, and used like currency.

p.s. First time I saw any of these old aerials was in the parking lot at the golf course, and they came right out of the trunk of George's Cadillac.    Back then they weren't on-line, and George had to go right to the source to get copies. The internet is a wonderful tool, too bad others aren't so willing to share certain resources. I can see where you might need to protect something of a family nature, or where you've been given something that isn't meant for general consumption, but information of the kind found on these aerials shouldn't be hidden.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

Thanks,

Jamie Slonis found a great resource, a company that provides aerials chronlogically.

He posted some aerials on a thread about Pine Valley, # 12.

The company doesn't have nationwide, coast to coast aerials, but appears to have them for the population centers and their outreaches.

It would be great to see if CC of Fairfield is on their site.

Jamie Slonis,

What was the name of that company ?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Here's some more fun to have with these aerials. You can 'mash' them up by going to:

http://magic.lib.uconn.edu/mash_up/aerials.html

...and then putting an address in the address box, and hitting 'go'. So if you wanted to see CCF you put in their address:

936 Sasco Hill Rd., Fairfield, Ct.

and you can, with just a click of the mouse, go between the 1934 aerial 1991, plus color 2006 nad 2008, and google.