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texsport

Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2003, 09:26:19 AM »
Great Leader Board after 2 rounds at the "long, flat and boring"Redstone GC. Inferior layout seems to be drawing all the elite players in the field to the top. Very strange!! No lay up holes on the whole course!!!

Calc., Couples and Kuene lead with Toms, Daly, Singh, Haas,etc. in striking range.

Kuene average drives have been 323 yds after two rounds.

Great, exciting golf!

Texsport
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #101 on: April 30, 2003, 07:07:45 AM »
Lou Duran was kind enough to send me a copy of the Dallas newspaper section that lists the "Top 50" courses in Texas, as well as various other rating lists (i.e. "Best 18 holes", etc.).

Some courses, like Dallas National, didn't appear because they are too new to have been rated.  From the pic I saw of it, it looks interesting.

However, one glaring omission that I'd like to hear more about is that C&C's Austin Golf Club didn't make the Top 50, nor did it warrant any mention whatsoever.

Any of you Texans know the scoop?  Is the club so private that nobody got to see it?  

I know the few that have played it on this board have sent back some positive reports.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #102 on: April 30, 2003, 08:05:11 AM »
Mike,

I think you have it.  Nobody has seen it to rate it.  Like Old Town and until recently, Lehigh.  Or Crystal Downs until 20 years ago.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #103 on: April 30, 2003, 08:26:26 AM »
Lou D:

Many thanks for forwarding me a copy of the same article that Mike Cirba alluded to. ;)

Next time I'm in Big "D" I'll be heading to Dallas National.

Like Scott -- I'm also puzzled at some of the choices and their positioning. But, if the ratings from one magazine (GD) are any indicator then it's easy to discern when Joe Sixpack and Mary Wineglass are doing the selecitons. ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #104 on: April 30, 2003, 01:29:32 PM »
In all do respect to Tom H we should say "Tom Sixpack"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #105 on: May 01, 2003, 06:35:27 AM »
Shivas I would have thought you would have sent that by private email since attorney/client privilege would apply here. lol Yes, I do think the Texas guys aka almost Mexico do not really need my help against the wizards of Wall Street.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #106 on: May 01, 2003, 06:38:57 AM »
Oh Shivas, do the Franks have the Credit to by even part of it much less all of back now. I think not. Remember dear ole Chicago would go down in the resale too. I cannot imagine the better likk in the windy city thriving under French management, But, I do like their red headed women, beach attire and working hours though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #107 on: May 01, 2003, 07:06:50 AM »
Shivas I was basing that on the Chicago River flowing into the Illinois River and the Illinois River flowing into the Mississippi River.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #108 on: May 01, 2003, 07:17:46 AM »
Maybe the gang in Texas can explain this to me -- I read in the Dallas Morning News (courtesy of Lou D) the golf copy on the best of the Lone Star State.

How does Dallas National merit a 155 slope?

That's higher than Bethpage Black and it ties with The Ocean Course in South Carolina. Is the course that demanding from the tips? Is it because of forced carries -- wetlands -- severe greens? Bethpage Black and The Ocean Course are simply relentless -- you know you have to deliver or you will be devoured. Is Dallas National r-e-a-l-l-y at that level of demands?

Is the course also balanced in the manner in which it presents itself. I mean simply is it tricked up -- does it play gotcha golf or is it really well done from a strategic sense.

Any info is helpful because a 155 slope is the highest one can go on the USGA system. Thanks ... ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

CHrisB

Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #109 on: May 01, 2003, 07:47:44 AM »
Shivas,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #110 on: May 01, 2003, 09:02:17 AM »
Matt,

Slope is a measure of difficulty for a bogie golfer compared to a scratch golfer.  The Black is very difficult for the scratch golfer as it is, so an extremely high slope is difficult to attain.

Dallas N must be that much more difficult for the bogie golfer due to forced carries or whatever.  Was the CR for DN stated?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #111 on: May 01, 2003, 09:05:25 AM »
Oh the ole west of the Mississippi R. trick. Ok Shivas you are safe on this one.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #112 on: May 01, 2003, 09:13:15 AM »
Scott:

Dallas National sports a hefty 76.1 course rating. For a course to be 155 is out of sight. I just need someone who's played it to explain if they feel it's justitifed and better yet to compare the slope rating with others that are in that range such as The Ocean Course.

By the way Bethpage Black is demanding for the scratch player as I believe the course rating is in excess of 75. The slope is 148 from the tips.

Only two other Texas courses were listed with a 145 or better slope rating ...

Stonebridge Ranch / Dye Course (McKinney)
Links at Water Chase (Fort Worth)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #113 on: May 01, 2003, 09:30:06 AM »
76.1/155 is virtually unheard of save Kiawah-Ocean, which is something like a 78 (or even 80?) from the tippy-tips.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #114 on: May 01, 2003, 09:36:06 AM »
Matt,

DN is carved out of very hilly territory. If the average Joe misses the fairways, he pays a stiff penalty, way down a fill slope or in a canyon, in many cases.

Otherwise, typical Fazio fare, in terms of bunkering, and green contour, which is pretty severe.

They wanted to go after the highest slope rating.  It appears they got it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt_Ward

Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #115 on: May 01, 2003, 09:48:50 AM »
Jeff / Scott / et al:

I hear what you're saying because I just visited the new Trump National in Briarcliff Manor, NY. The course sports a 153 slope from the tips and is nearly 78 from the tips. The land is very severe -- even for Westchester standards (I'll post a full course description at another time).

Scott -- The Ocean Course, I believe, is 79.7 from the tips. In my opinion -- when the wind picks up to be anywhere close to 2-3 club force you will not play a more intense and demanding course. Even the Black doesn't reach that type of demand.

I would be curious to get reaction from those who've played a fair share of Texas courses to weigh where Dallas National would be rated among the best in the state -- since the course is new it wasn't included in the most recent poll?

P.S. Jeff, does Dallas National have any design substance? Are the greens overly contoured -- forced carries? Many thanks ...  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #116 on: May 01, 2003, 10:04:30 AM »
Matt,

its clearly one of the most spectacular sites in Dallas, or Texas, has the most publicity and it's Fazio.  Some people are drooling.

I only saw it once, so I can't say if it will stay up there in the hearts and minds of Texans, nobody can.  As I have said before, I actually like Fazios Vaquero better, but thats just me.

BTW, according to the news last night, the clubhouse, which is under construction burned down last night.  That may set a record for earliest clubhouse fire, adding to its lore and legend.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #117 on: May 02, 2003, 09:21:57 AM »
:)

Sounds a lot like the hype for Waterwood National many moons ago.. but will it last?

"Widely considered among the top golf course designs in America, Waterwood boasts a slope rating of 142, and a course rating of 75.2 (more than four strokes over par), has hosted national amateur championship events and the final stage of the PGA Tour Qualifying school. PGA greats like
Paul Azinger, Hal Sutton, Chip Beck and Scott Hoch earned their tour cards on the narrow fairways and undulating greens expertly crafted by Mr. Dye. The Cliffs, Waterwood's fourteenth hole, is ranked by Golf Digest as one of the best 36 holes in America. The high degree of difficulty places Waterwood among the 50 most difficult courses in America, and creates unforgettable memories.

Like #13 too..


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #118 on: May 05, 2003, 10:49:22 AM »
:D

Kinko's Classic this weekend at the Hills in Austin, another ClubCorp venue..

Check it out at http://www.thehillscc.com/

Amigo, its another Bear sighting in TX..  




======================
Re Dallas National... locale (Oak Hill) just SW side of downtown Dallas can be seen from this pic fromTexasGolfer Magazine



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #119 on: May 05, 2003, 01:03:35 PM »
I've played DNGC a couple of times in strong winds (20 - 30 mph), once from the north and the other from the south.  From the second set of tees where I played it both times, it is around 6,800 yards and a stern test.  From the tournament tees it is over 7,200 yards, though length is not what provides the challenge.  As Jeff mentioned, it is built on some very dramatic land, with large elevation changes.  The greens vary considerably in size and shape, and are much more complicated than anything of Fazio's that I have played.  I am not a student of the slope system, so my guess is that the high rating is a result of the large elevation changes and some of the forced carries (though these are not out of line when the appropriate tees are played).  At some point in time, I will give a fuller detail of the course, but the variety, challenge, and options that it provides are, in my opinion, what sets the course apart.  No comparison can be made between Waterwood and DNGC.  The latter was designed and built with great attention to detail and sufficient budget; the former has been in financial problem from the first day and rather than improving the course, they've made changes to lower maintenance expenses.  DNGC is more "playable" than Ocean for the average guy, in that he shouldn't lose as many balls just off the line of play.

Both DNGC and Austin Golf Club were too new to rate in 2002, but will surely appear in the local list this coming year.  AGC appears to be very exclusive, though I may be able to play it next week when I go to Austin to help my son move his stuff from UT for the summer.  If they grant me access and the permission to report on the course, I will do so.  What I have heard from a couple of people who've played the course (AGC), is that they weren't very impressed, but this appeared to be because of the type of course it is (natural, wild) as opposed to heavily countoured and manicured.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #120 on: May 06, 2003, 06:09:40 AM »
The Dallas Morning News reports this morning that the Dallas National Clubhouse fire was certainly arson.  That is a sad news story coming out of Dallas.....almost as sad as me having to change my tag line this morning :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #121 on: May 06, 2003, 06:18:57 AM »
Quote
The Dallas Morning News reports this morning that the Dallas National Clubhouse fire was certainly arson.  That is a sad news story coming out of Dallas.....almost as sad as me having to change my tag line this morning :'(

Jeff --

As a one-time fanatical fan of the Minnesota North Stars (emphasis on North), I can empathize with you this morning ... and hereby invite you to transfer your allegiance (as all North Stars fans were forced to) to the Minnesota Wild -- a.k.a. "Jacques and Awe!"

Dan

Modified to eliminate "almost" before "empathize." On second thought, I decided I really could empathize -- so long as that (insert derogatory noun of your choosing) Norm Green is out of the picture down there.

In the immortal words of North Star fans everywhere:

NORM ... SUCKS!



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #122 on: May 06, 2003, 06:37:21 AM »
The Wild is already my second favorite team.  I love the hard working style.

Best trade the Dallas Stars ever made was Tom Hicks for Norm Green.  However, there is something about watching the lowest paid team in hockey (our first line makes more than your entire team) winning the old fashioned way!

naturally, I was watching the Stars, so what was up with a 7-2 victory last night?  Shouldn't the Wild petition the league to be able to utilize some of their "leftover" goals the next game?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #123 on: May 06, 2003, 06:51:16 AM »
Lou,

Austin GC opened in 2000, not too new for 2002, IMO.  I  think that those who rate for DMN haven't played it.  Or enough haven't played it to rate it.  Unfortunately, in ratings such as in a newspaper, extreme exclusivity is often enough to put a course near the top of rating, regardless of course quality.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Texas HOT, or not?
« Reply #124 on: May 06, 2003, 07:06:03 AM »

Quote
naturally, I was watching the Stars, so what was up with a 7-2 victory last night?  Shouldn't the Wild petition the league to be able to utilize some of their "leftover" goals the next game?

Wild idea!

I, naturally, was sleeping. Based on the local cable outfit's on-screen Guide, I set the VCR to tape it, for Rose (big Wild fan) and me to watch early this morning. There must have been a channel switch sometime after the Guide was produced -- because what I got was endless ESPN News.

From now on, I'm going to double-check the Guide with a more reliable source: the daily newspaper. Duh.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

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