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Melvyn Morrow

What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« on: October 13, 2009, 09:08:01 AM »

What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?

On December 10, 2007, at 12:00:08 am a very special topic was posted on GCA.com. My attention was drawn to it by Alfie Ward which actually stated the ball rolling for me to joining this site.

Peter’s topic was IMHO bloody great, his words, clear and to the point, he conveyed perhaps what is I believe is the basis for a site like GCA.com. Judge for yourself, as below is Peters post.

Our words don't always express what we mean, or communicate what is most important to us; and while actions can speak louder than words, you can't always judge the intention that lies behind the action by the action itself. And in Old Tom Morris' case, almost exactly a century has passed since his death.

Any thoughts about what lay deep in Old Tom Morris' heart and mind when it came to golf and its fields of play?

What kind of game was golf meant to be? What was golf's true value, and true values? How could or should those values be manifest in the game's fields of play, and how could an architect achieve that? What was it about the game and its courses that fed the soul of this sensible Scot?
 
I know that as a golfer, greenskeeper and designer, he saw and participated in over his long life many changes to the game and its technology and its courses; but I'm more interested in your thoughts about the internal belief systems that were the engine for his external words and actions.   

I've read about OTM's gentle and humble disposition, and of how he was "always cheerful during a life which met with almost continual disappointments and sorrows," and about the outpouring of affection at his death.

What do you think this beloved old man felt/believed about golf and golf course architecture that kept it at the centre of his life for nearly all his life?

Thanks
Peter
   
 
What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart? Has he left us for good, in fact can we – the Members of GCA.com afford to lose Members than can raise issues like 

“What kind of game was golf meant to be? What was golf's true value, and true values? How could or should those values be manifest in the game's fields of play, and how could an architect achieve that? What was it about the game and its courses that fed the soul of this sensible Scot?”  Just change the last few words and he is talking about our world today.

They are as relevant today as in OTM time, in fact I would go as far as to say more so. Our game is under siege, lack of money for the courses or to build courses, some for sale, some forced to close, yet the Professional still make a fortune each year. Money certainly in not in short supply when aimed at the precious few money. Manufacturers seem unwilling to control their own production line for the sake of the game so no ‘roll back’ of the ball or alternative technology to control the distance the ball can travel. More pressure on raising money for course modifications and extensions, but lets not worry those making money don’t tend to suffer as us mere mortals, who do seem to care more about where our game is going and its future prospects.

Peter post from 2007 is still, if not more valid today than ever before. So what is in Peter Pallotta’s heart, is it to stay away or continue to practice what he has so excellently contributed to this site in the past.

Peter, Old Tom is calling you to stand up for what you do and believe in, so are we, your friends, all want to hear what is truly is in your heart. Can you find the heart to contribute again?

Melvyn   


Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2009, 09:22:27 AM »
Where did he go?
Mr Hurricane

Adam Clayman

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Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2009, 09:25:06 AM »
I'm at a loss at what caused Peter's self expulsion. Although, I seem to recall seeing a PPalotta posting since word of his exit. So, perhaps it's a catharsis we all must go through? Being beaten up by a crowd, then realizing how foolish it is to allow "them" to control "you".

In the spirit of the old Tiger commercials... I am Old Tom Morris!


oops, for got to answer

Quote
What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?

Likely Celluloid.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 09:28:42 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Melvyn Morrow

Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2009, 09:29:47 AM »

Jim

I do not know, just read TEPaul reply #217 on 'Social Tiger Woods' topic from yesterday 04:42:49PM, which reads as follows

Jay:

I don't know Jesse Jones at all but I feel I should. But please tell me Peter Pallotta did not say he's leaving this website. I didn't notice where he said that and I looked. If HE decided to leave GOLFCLUBATLAS.com THAT would indeed be a very depressing harbinger!

Melvyn

Kalen Braley

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Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2009, 09:35:54 AM »
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41505.245/  .....  Reply 252

Not Peter's words but according to another GCA'er Peter left because of how Jim Engh's thread "so much fuss over concrete" played out.

JESII

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Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2009, 10:05:45 AM »
Melvyn,

I believe Peter is still listed as an active participant but your post/thread struck me in another way...


What have we done to deserve Peter's contribution?


An example being the thread you cited...Alfie and Tommy made insightful posts but the thread died on 7 or 8 total responses...

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2009, 10:15:21 AM »
I hope he hasn't stopped contributing.
(is this a meta thread?)
He and his words will always be with me either way.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2009, 11:10:15 AM »

Jim

Please for God’s sake do not judge a topic on the number of post attributed to it.

Just look back over the last few years and tell me some of the topics are worth all those pages.

As for what Peter and others offer is a view of the whole game, not just the ‘have you played this and what do you think’ mentality of some. In truth, that type of topic serves no purpose and explains little of the course GCA. For that, we need to look and read Sean’s post or of late young Kyle’s photo tour of Scotland last summer. It shows the courses in fair detail, he has captured the architecture and land in a way many others have not.

For me the site is not about lists of comparing one player against the next or one course against the next. It’s about courses, locations, of development of the game. My game and style may not match many, I do not use artificial aids, preferring to walk and work out distances by my own means, so my idea of a good or fun course may well not agree with you. I prefer links course to inland and have been able to play a fair selection in my time.

Therefore, what has Peter contributed, well an insight and serious questions on the game itself, that’s more than many on here have done or perhaps want to understand. Yet it’s a GCA site, and listing the best courses or the best players has sweet little to do with it, but it pleases the Membership. Looking to the historical and development of the game, again only a fraction of Members are interested. Sites or location on suitable terrain is hardly ever discussed yet it’s dictated the budget and style of the pending course perhaps even its future.

Should we not be discussing Golf course architecture, the problems of over complicating the course with by drainage and irrigation for the simple reason that some one wanted to build a course in an unsuitable area. Build where you want but in the end you pay the price for building on Land not fit for Purpose, in either large budgets or massive preparation work below ground level and on going maintenance costs. Problem is that many are not interested in architecture or its history, only how the course plays, which is fine on other sites but this is a Golf architecture site, well I was told it was. 

By highlighting the separate paragraph by Peter, I thought I had explained what he contributes and how well he does it.

Go compare other courses with each other, work out a list of the top 100 courses. Then do the same with players. I bet that the 1500 Members on here would not submit the same list, all would be different, some greatly so, but that does not define them as wrong, it just defines their opinions and what they seek in golf.

Golf Carts and tracks are regrettable part of the modern game so must be incorporated within the architecture, but when you close a golf course to walking you stop playing and designing a golf course, it becomes something else but not golf.

Peter and I do not always agree, hell not many agree with me on many points, but I stay true to the way I was taught in St Andrews way back in the late 50’s early 60’s. That’s how it was played, that’s how I learnt to play it and that’s how I will play the game, I just see no reason for change

Having said that, many of the new toys, clubs, balls have an affect on the course,  how it is shaped and constructed, yet I feel we have gone over the top. Money now drives or did till just recently, the development of courses, alas not golf anymore thanks to the credit crunch.

Let’s look to the Olympic Games, by allowing Professionals, you kill the passage of the amateur sportsman/women ideals and close the doors on the new up and coming, as the Professionals should ultimately be the winners. The ideals of the Olympics destroyed or at best, well tarnished, yet our governing bodies have without hesitation traded in the game of golf for a hand full – I was going to say golf, but silver seem more in line with their betrayal of the game of Golf.

The point Jim is that all our opinions are important. We need to understand what game we play or favour and just be honest about it. Peter IMHO is an honest guy and he should be contributing to the debate on the game of Golf.

Sorry, for the long answer.

Melvyn       

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2009, 11:23:17 AM »
Melvyn,

I appreciate the long answer, but you must have misread my post/question...I asked what we have done to deserve Peter's contributions, which have been unquestionably valuable to all of us.

Garland Bayley

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Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2009, 01:29:52 PM »
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41505.245/  .....  Reply 252

Not Peter's words but according to another GCA'er Peter left because of how Jim Engh's thread "so much fuss over concrete" played out.
....not sure why I am back here, but it probably has to do with a person I respect a lot...Peter Pallotta...who has indicated he is gone as a result of this thread. A real loss.
...

I think the news of Peter's leaving us has been much exaggerated.

Anyone who insists he is more sinned against than sinning can bite me.

Anyone who confuses his personal aesthetic with a universal good can bite me.

Anyone who removes the speck in his brother's eye while ignoring the mote in his own can bite me.

Anyone who mistakes the ephemeral art and craft of golf course architecture with a perennial philosophy or an ancient decalogue can bite me. (Ooops - I have to bite myself there.)

Peter


This is only one of several of Peter's posts this month.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2009, 02:00:36 PM »
I've never been much for "rankings".  But, I'd have to part with my sentiments on meaningless rankings and declare that IMHO, Peter is one of the top 1% or < ,writer/thinkers in this forum.  I don't know which thread may have made him part, or if he actually made a statement that he was out of here.  I haven't been reading many threads these days either... and missed whatever it was that had upset him.  But, I can guess how it all probably went down... :-\

I'll be the first to admit that I have let my temper fly and go O.T. on a few occasions.  I guess I love a good arguement as much as the next guy.  So, I've been trying to save my opinions on various hot button O.T.s  to newspaper blogs and forums lately, and trying to stay relatively on topic of GCA and related things here.  The reason to not participate as much as I had in the past is I feel I"ve run out of anything creative or original to say, beyond things I've already posted in the past and am getting leary of being redundant and boring to others about the limitted things I know.  

Perhaps like Peter may have done, I have been reading some threads lately, and once seeing that an expressed opinion of one person or another on a given thread draws a personal insult by another that is usually nothing more than a one-upsmanship statement of ego, golf prowess, historical knowlege, or personal statement of status, I just decide to quit reading those threads.  When I see that threads start going 5 and more pages it seems most of them end up being pissing matches over trivialities and non-GCA attitudes, rather than sharing GCA or related ideas.  So, that is how I must have missed Peter's point of departure.  He must have gotten disappointed in discussion skills and the need by some to overwhelm others with their own views and attitudes, to the exclusion and disrespect of others.  Maybe another way of saying this is a plea about opinions: to say it - don't spray it with suppressing machine gun fire, ignoring all the collateral damage...

It is ironic how some of the most wry and delicious humor that is found on this forum that is populated by some very wise and intelligent folk, is equalled by some of the most disappointing put-downs and insults.  

I hope I don't miss my own Adios when it happens...  ::) :-\
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2009, 02:16:46 PM »
RJ,
This is not a new question, but I've never heard a good answer: If 'you' are bothered by the way a thread is going why don't 'you' just stay away from it?

There aren't more than a few people posting on the threads-that-drive-men-nuts so it shouldn't be that hard to stay away, unless moth-like, you are drawn to the flame.


p.s. Pete writes nicely.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2009, 02:17:01 PM »
Jay Flemma has been propigating this nonsense about Peter Pallotta being driven away for over three weeks now, yet during this time Peter has posted at least twenty times.  Apparently Flemma isn't comfortable with others expressing their opinions about the architects he endlessly praises, even when they do so respectfully.   And he is apparently even less comfortable with those who don't take the misinformation he spreads about these designers as gospel.   This rumor mongering about people leaving and why they left seems to be his passive-aggressive way of trying to deal with that.  

Here is what he had to say around three weeks ago:

So we've lost Peter Pallotta and Jim Engh all because of David M...that's a sad loss for the site.

Guys, just ignore him.  One of these days, that kid will grow up.

The problem is that I had said nothing disrespectful to Peter Pallotta or Jim Engh in Mr. Engh's thread.   If Peter has a problem with me I would think he would bring it up himself as he always has in the past.   As for Jim Engh, I am sure he has his own reasons for ignoring the many questions asked of him by many posters.   He seems pretty comfortable with his approach and the fact that some will disagree with it.  I am not sure why Jay is not.

For anyone curious as to what supposedly drove Mr. Engh and I guess Peter away, my offending post (as near as I can tell) was post 119 on this page.  
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41505.105/

Bottom line is that Jay is just trying to stir up trouble.   He is using these supposed departures for his own bizarre rhetorical reasons, trying to capitalize on fictional slights that Jay himself as been working hard to nurture.  I am not exactly sure what is motivating him, but it all seems pretty sleazy if you ask me.

Peter is a valuable poster, and I hope he continues to participate.  But as far as I can tell he is participating!   If he truly has an issue with me, I hope he will raise it with me.    In the mean time, I think we should be careful to consider motives when Jay or anyone starts chirping about who has left and why.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 02:25:24 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Anthony Gray

Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2009, 02:23:43 PM »


  Gentelmen Golfers should be Gentelmen Posters.


   Anthony


Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2009, 02:24:37 PM »
I expect -- and hope -- that Peter has merely found the time, and the need, to do some other things.

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

tlavin

Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2009, 02:54:34 PM »
What's in his heart?  Don't make an old, fat cynic cry!

I might have more interest in what's in his golf bag.  Or what's in his driveway.  Or in his locker at the club.

TEPaul

Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2009, 06:04:54 PM »
What is in Peter Pallotta's heart?

I certainly don't know that. I don't know what is in his mind with golf architecture either but I have an inkling. What I think I do know relatively well because I have talked with him so much is the WAY he thinks about golf architecture, and I like it a lot. It seems to me he thinks of it sort of metaphyically and those who've read some of his thoughts on here can probably recognize that when he talks about or perhaps more frequently asks about fundamental principles----what they are or even what they mean.

I'm not sure he's even interested in some final destination of knowledge about architecture; it could be mostly the search itself that inspires him. Much of what we've talked about over the years seems to have revolved around the writing of Max Behr in one way or another and so I'm going to offer this quotation from Behr which is about the first half of one paragraph in his article "Art in Golf Architecture." I think this quotation explains well the WAY I believe Peter Pallotta thinks about golf architecture and perhaps some other things;

"But the golf architect who looks upon his work as a true art will be ever humble, for his search is beauty. With so high a purpose, his WILL is ever subservient to his quest. It becomes the handmaid by which he brings to fruition his intuitions of truth. He must first FEEL before he thinks."
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 06:09:36 PM by TEPaul »

Tim Pitner

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Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2009, 06:49:05 PM »
I hope he hasn't stopped contributing.
(is this a meta thread?)

It is and, IMHO, there have been way too many lately.  Personally, I'd rather talk about any number of OT topics before talking about us talking about GCA. 

Peter Pallotta

Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2009, 10:07:37 PM »
Melvyn, and others -

thank you for the generous words. I appreciate them very much. 

Needless to say, I didn't want any such fanfare. I mentioned to someone off-line that I was leaving and that I had asked Ran to delete my profile, and that information got onto the site.

But I just wanted to say, since this thread is out here, that there was no one thread or poster that led to anything.

It's been a long time since I've contributed anything useful or practical to these discussions; I've played far fewer golf courses and have read far fewer books on architecture than just about anyone else on here, and 'ideas' only go so far. 

But also (mainly) my situation right now is that I have obligations and duties that I can't ignore, and less and less time to devote to them.  And since I don't have the discipline to really stop myself from posting, I thought deletion would be best.  I've asked Ran a couple of times now, but he hasn't yet had a chance.

And so Melvyn - I guess in one way at least I am trying to be like Old Tom, who strikes me as a fellow who was very aware of where his duties and obligations lay, and who made sure to focus his attentions and energies there.

Best

Peter   


Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2009, 03:28:41 AM »
Dam I hopped we had a Mark Twain moment going on.



Best wishes Peter and hopefully it won’t be too long before you choose to return. It will be most illuminating to find out what golf thoughts come into your head in the meantime.

You have given us much pleasure on here. Thanks.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2009, 09:57:15 AM »
PS - I had Peter out to my course right after the Walker Cup.  Peter's a great guy and joy to be around!

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2009, 10:20:39 AM »
Peter, you make good contributions every time you post.  Moreover, everyone on the site likes you because you understand that this site is not about scoring points with posts or one-upping people, but about making friends and learning.  We'll miss you if you leave, and be grateful if you stay.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2009, 08:04:49 PM »
Peter,

You're not only a welcomed point of view and a terrific writer, you're a true friend.

All the best, keep in touch and God Bless......

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2009, 08:13:29 PM »

But also (mainly) my situation right now is that I have obligations and duties that I can't ignore, and less and less time to devote to them.  And since I don't have the discipline to really stop myself from posting, I thought deletion would be best.  I've asked Ran a couple of times now, but he hasn't yet had a chance.


Peter,

Just give it a rest for a week and ease yourself back in to it gradually. Moderation is the key. And tell you wife that she is very selfish to keep you all to herself.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is in Peter Pallotta’s Heart?
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2009, 09:04:52 PM »
Regardless of what you really have to do...you have to have a means to express yourself...least you gel or worse.

It's not for everybody of course...but you're not everybody.

Figure and ponder but trust your center.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

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