OLd Macdonald's greens the largest in the world

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

It may sound like a gimmick but that was certainly not the intent ... in fact I had no idea the greens were "the largest" until I read the same article.

I'm in Bandon now; played the full 18 holes today with Mr. Han from China, and will play again tomorrow with Mr. Keiser.  I do not really know how they can even compute the area of the greens, because there is absolutely ZERO definition between green and fairway ... you think it was blurry before, at Old Macdonald the line is just not there.  I guess Ken computed the areas based on what he sprays or walk-mows.  But it would not surprise me a bit if they ARE the biggest greens in the world, they're enormous.

I hit a lot of poor shots today but scraped it around okay I guess.  One of the guys in our group "shot" 84 (playing just to pins stuck in the ground on eight of the holes) after shooting in the 90's on the other three courses this week.  But it will get tougher as the greens get faster.  First impression of the new holes was that I don't think I have ever played two holes back-to-back with as much going on as the Alps 16th and the Littlestone 17th.  I did knock it on in two at the latter, playing straight downwind.  The Eden hole (#2) is also quite scary.

[Rob Rigg]

Tom,

It sounds like everything is growing in on, or ahead, of schedule?

I hope you are getting the clear skies at Bandon that we are seeing in Portland - bit chilly in the AM but perfect golfing weather as the day progresses.

I will not be surprised if a lot of people have their "best" round of the trip at OM because there is a lot of space which helps prevent the huge numbers off the tee - of course, if you are chipping from "jail" or on the wrong part of the green, a double or more becomes a possibility pretty quickly. It is a really fun course for scrambling (based on my preview round).

Can't wait to experience the other eight holes, and the Sahara from the "proper" tee.

[Mike Hendren]

Mike:
It may sound like a gimmick but that was certainly not the intent ... in fact I had no idea the greens were "the largest" until I read the same article.

Tom,  I expected that explanation and believe you 100%.  That said, I doubt Links Magazine measured the greens so they were likely apprised of the fact.  One cannot underestimate the marketing prowess of the ownership - it's brilliant and that's not a criticism.  Their marketing is subtle, but they don't miss a trick.  Frankly, they play this web site like a master.

Hopefully I'll get back there some day and really look forward to playing Old Macdonald. 

Kindest regards,

Bogey

[Jud_T]

Tom,

how are we going to record accurate putting stats? 

[Anthony_Nysse]

  THis months LINKS magazine states that Old Mac has 6.5 acres of greens compared to 6.1 acres of greens at The Old Course. A lot to look foward to.

  Anthony

I personally think that amount of greens grass is a complete WASTE! With the cost of golf being a sort of reflection of the maintenance budget, this is dissappointing. Think of all the extra man hours it takes to roll, mow, aerify, handwater, spray, etc and fo what? ....I've very disappointed to read this and this IS NOT the direction that golf course construction needs to be going....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[Robin_Hiseman]

Tom:

Our irrigation designer has a fit if our green shapes don't fit within his head-to-head spacing.  How have you gone about achieving even coverage on such large putting surfaces....or have you not even tried?

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

With greens that large,does one have to contend much with sprinklers on the putting surface?  Then again if there really is no line between the green and its surrounds, I guess if you have a sprinkler in your way, then your probably not "on the green".

A good side to this is I'm sure GIRs % will go way up when playing Old Mac!!   

[Jim Thompson]

RE Coverage:

At Angels we modified some fairway heads for our larger greens.  Coverage wasn't a problem.  I think we may have also given 6.5 total acreage a run for its money...

Cheers!

JT

[Brent Hutto]

Absent a visually obvious demarcation between "green" and "fairway" the most useful definition is probably "where they mow with a greens mower every day" and "where they don't".

[Jud_T]

I wonder what someone really good could score at OM using just a putter? sounds like an event!

[Greg Chambers]

  THis months LINKS magazine states that Old Mac has 6.5 acres of greens compared to 6.1 acres of greens at The Old Course. A lot to look foward to.

  Anthony

I personally think that amount of greens grass is a complete WASTE! With the cost of golf being a sort of reflection of the maintenance budget, this is dissappointing. Think of all the extra man hours it takes to roll, mow, aerify, handwater, spray, etc and fo what? ....I've very disappointed to read this and this IS NOT the direction that golf course construction needs to be going....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

However, would you not agree that because the greens are fescue, they don't really need to be sprayed for much if anything, or fertilized for that matter.  Handwatering would be minimal.  If they were bent greens it would be a totally different story.

[Mike Wagner]

Tony,

Isn't that a bit much for a place as special as Bandon.  Do you not think the uniqure experince FAR outweighs the "direction" of GCA? 

Do you really think it will have that type of influence on developers - I think not.

Keiser and Doak have earned the right to do whatever they want with what I would call the best golf experience in at least this country.  While I respect your opinion, and don't think it's the direction the game will head, I would say it's out of line to call the implementation of something so unique a WASTE. It will be an absolutely one of a kind experince at the most desired place to play golf in this country.

[Jud_T]

Tony,

While I'm certainly far from an expert on the subject, it seems to me that using lower-maintenace turf, i.e. fescue, not only provides for a superior playing surface for the ground game but is more environmentally friendly and lower cost as well.  Isn't this exactly the direction golf should be going in?:

www.smorumgolfcenter.dk/Admin/Public/DWSDownload.aspx?File=files%2ffiler%2ffescues.pdf ·

[Anthony_Nysse]

  THis months LINKS magazine states that Old Mac has 6.5 acres of greens compared to 6.1 acres of greens at The Old Course. A lot to look foward to.

  Anthony

I personally think that amount of greens grass is a complete WASTE! With the cost of golf being a sort of reflection of the maintenance budget, this is dissappointing. Think of all the extra man hours it takes to roll, mow, aerify, handwater, spray, etc and fo what? ....I've very disappointed to read this and this IS NOT the direction that golf course construction needs to be going....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

However, would you not agree that because the greens are fescue, they don't really need to be sprayed for much if anything, or fertilized for that matter.  Handwatering would be minimal.  If they were bent greens it would be a totally different story.

Greg,
  Does the greens not have to be mowed, aerified, topdressed, etc....All and all, it's a waste. Similar to a golf course back in MI have 6 acres of tees...why waste the maintenance is over 50% of it will never be used.

Mike,
  "Keiser and Doak have earned the right to do whatever they want with what I would call the best golf experience in at least this country."
  Nobody has the right to be wasteful, not even "The Donald..."

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[Greg Chambers]

So you're saying that if the areas around the greens were fairway then they wouldn't have to be mowed or aerified?  Come on man...

[Rob Rigg]

While the tees you refer to in MI may never be used, these greens certainly will.

Since the course is strategic, the pin positions at all corners of the green will really dictate how a player should attack the hole, especially optimizing approach angle, on any given day.

The ball will also roll forever on the F&F ground which makes a huge green play much smaller.

To each his own opinion of course, but I do not see anything about OM as wasteful or negative.

Does TOC have a much higher maintenance budget than the average course in the US because it has big greens?

I don't know, but I doubt it.

[Todd Bell]

What 's more wasteful; exhausting 1000 man hours on 3 acres of greens or 1000 man hours on 6 acres of greens?

[Greg Chambers]

What 's more wasteful; exhausting 1000 man hours on 3 acres of greens or 1000 man hours on 6 acres of greens?

Or 1000 man hours on 3 acres of bunkers?

[Anthony_Nysse]

So you're saying that if the areas around the greens were fairway then they wouldn't have to be mowed or aerified?  Come on man...

Greg,
  Are you saying that you maintain your surrounds just as you do your greens? Mow as often, roll as often, topdress as often, spray as often, etc...Doubtful....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[Anthony_Nysse]

What 's more wasteful; exhausting 1000 man hours on 3 acres of greens or 1000 man hours on 6 acres of greens?

I have no doubts that the golf course could have been just as fun, and just as good WITHOUT 6.5 acres of greens....come on guys, put the Doak/Bandon/Fescue juice down....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[Greg Chambers]

So you're saying that if the areas around the greens were fairway then they wouldn't have to be mowed or aerified?  Come on man...

Greg,
  Are you saying that you maintain your surrounds just as you do your greens? Mow as often, roll as often, topdress as often, spray as often, etc...Doubtful....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

Well, considering you have no idea of my operation, I find it hard to believe that you would decide to opine on the way I treat my surrounds.  With the exception of rolling, yes, I do maintain my surrounds as if they were greens, only they're bluegrass rather than bentgrass, and the HOC is slightly higher.  And I spray once a year--for snow mold protection going into winter, on my greens and my surrounds.

[Anthony_Nysse]

So you're saying that if the areas around the greens were fairway then they wouldn't have to be mowed or aerified?  Come on man...

Greg,
  Are you saying that you maintain your surrounds just as you do your greens? Mow as often, roll as often, topdress as often, spray as often, etc...Doubtful....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

Well, considering you have no idea of my operation, I find it hard to believe that you would decide to opine on the way I treat my surrounds.  With the exception of rolling, yes, I do maintain my surrounds as if they were greens, only they're bluegrass rather than bentgrass, and the HOC is slightly higher.  And I spray once a year--for snow mold protection going into winter, on my greens and my surrounds.

Greg,
  We can split hairs, but when you have a differnt type of grass, at a different height, YOURE NOT maintaining it that same...do you mow them everyday?  Do you double cut them? Roll them several times a week, brush them, groom them? Maybe cover your approaches in the winter?  Naw...

[Eric Johnson]

What 's more wasteful; exhausting 1000 man hours on 3 acres of greens or 1000 man hours on 6 acres of greens?

I have no doubts that the golf course could have been just as fun, and just as good WITHOUT 6.5 acres of greens....come on guys, put the Doak/Bandon/Fescue juice down....

Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

Anthony,
When was your visit to Bandon?

[Ian Larson]

Greens will always be maintained more intensely than green surrounds. I'm sure all supers on here would agree to that and would have a weak arguement otherwise.

6 acres of greens on a resort course that has play starting early in the morning is either going to take double the man hours or double the man power to have them mowed ahead of play as compared to typical 3 acres. Walk mowing is costly as it is on 3 acres. And I'm sure they're being walk mowed and not triplexed at Bandon.

3 Acres of greens

4 men = 3 hours to mow 18


6 Acres of greens

4 men = 6 hours to mow 18

or.....

8 men = 3 hours to mow 18


Average wage per man  = say $11.00 / hr.

3 Acres mowed 365 days year = $48,000

6 Acres mowed 365 days year = $96,000


Then you can just double aerifying costs, topdressing costs, spraying costs, rolling costs etc.

And the golfers don't care if it's 3 or 6 acres. They will be teeing off at the same time no matter what. So in order to mow, roll, topdress or spray....you not only double the manpower to get it done ahead of play, you double the equipment needed to do it....

Roller = $15k

Sprayer = $50 - $75k

Greens mowers = $15k


Granted, fescue may not require the same fertilizer amount as bentgrass....but do we not think fescue is susceptible to major disease in the pacific northwest? The fungicide budget alone would trump any 3 acre bentgrass green fert budget.


Having over 6 acres of greens and needing them to be maintained ahead of play will cost more than double to maintain 3 acres of bentgrass. The only thing "green" about that is the money being spent....

[Ian Larson]

I might add that there must be alot of Bandon / Doak / OM juice going around. If Greg Norman, Tom Fazio or some other architect used over 6 acres of green space they would be getting trashed left and right on here for the direction they're going....