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Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2009, 11:19:38 PM »
Stephen Kay's new desgins are not the problem, I have played most of the one's talked about and enjoyed them.  It is his renovation work at several of the Dev Emmet courses that I have played that is abismal - eliminating a lot of classic Emmet features.  That may be part of the reason he does not get as much talk.

Chris


Chris,

  Do you know what his orders were from the membership prior to starting work? 
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2009, 09:56:30 AM »
Stephen Kay's new desgins are not the problem, I have played most of the one's talked about and enjoyed them.  It is his renovation work at several of the Dev Emmet courses that I have played that is abismal - eliminating a lot of classic Emmet features.  That may be part of the reason he does not get as much talk.

Chris


Chris,

  Do you know what his orders were from the membership prior to starting work? 

Doug,

Several I do, several I do not.

Jay asked a question about why he was not getting more discussion here - if you don't have something nice to say, I guess don't say anything at all.  I said I like several of his new designs - his Emmet renovation work - not so much, period.

Chris


Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2009, 09:57:46 AM »
Chris, what are your thoughts on Llanerch? Leewood and Hampshire?

Jay,

The first course is not an Emmet as far as I am aware of and I have a very accurate list of his courses.  The second two are Emmet and have been altered significantly.

Chris

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2009, 10:05:21 AM »
Right, Chris.  Llanerch is a Blakely, but Stephen restored that too.

What did he change at the Emmets and why don't you like it?  Have you seen his touch ups to Forsgate?  They are remarkable...the Biarritz especially.  He restored it all the way back so the swale is in the middle of the green.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2009, 10:16:31 AM »
 My understanding is that Llanerch is Findlay. This was not a restoration but a renovation with homage to the classic lineage of the course. I find much done there to be quite enjoyable. They opened up the course to more playability.The course had been reduced from 27 to 18 holes many moons ago so "restoration" was impossible.

    I have seen a Kay master plan for Torresdale/Frankford which seems to abandon much of the width that Ross designed into the course. Again it could be exactly what the club wants, but it still saddens me.
AKA Mayday

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2009, 11:15:37 AM »
Right, Chris.  Llanerch is a Blakely, but Stephen restored that too.

Jay,

I have no idea what this line means??  The course is not a Devereux Emmet course, period.  And, I have not seen it.

I am sorry you and Mr. Kay are so tight and nothing negative can written.  As for courses that a good deal of Emmet has been altered, Lake Isle and Leewood come to mind.  These were not restored period.  Send me a message off line, but I am not gonig to get into a pissing contest here.

Chris

Troy Alderson

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2009, 11:19:32 AM »
Jay,

Stephen was my architecture instructor at the Professional Golf Turf Management program at Rutgers U.  He is an excellent architect and deserves more recognition.  LND is a great design in a great setting.  Good to see him mentioned here on GCA.

Troy

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2009, 12:24:56 PM »
He's been doing that fopr more than 25 years too.  I lectured with him once on whether you can copyright a golf hole.  He's entertaining and engaging and, yes, a nice man.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2009, 09:36:28 PM »
Jay,

Stephen was my architecture instructor at the Professional Golf Turf Management program at Rutgers U.  He is an excellent architect and deserves more recognition.  LND is a great design in a great setting.  Good to see him mentioned here on GCA.

Troy

Troy,

  When did you attend RU?  Was on Cook Campus--I graduated 1999/2000.
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Matt_Ward

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2009, 09:58:19 PM »
Interesting points raised of Kay's designs versus his efforts at upgrading courses which likely cannot be said to be sympathetic restorations.

The AC area did benefit from his work at McCullough's -- save for the 15th & 16th holes which I mentioned previously.

The Links at Unionvale suffers because it's so off the beaten track and much of the local area fanfare has gone to the CCFAD types that are nearby -- e.g. Centennial and Mansion Ridge, to name just two.

One course not mentioned is his work on the Island at The Hamlet. Before commenting -- wonder how many people have played it and what your thoughts are.


Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2009, 10:06:44 PM »
I'd be very much interested in what people think of the work Kay did at McCullough's Emerald Links in Little Egg Harbor, NJ -- just 10-15 minutes from the AC Boardwalk.

Matt, I'm with you on MEGL--it's a good round of golf at an affordable price, especially considering the alternatives in the area, most of the publics are over three figures in high season.  It's public, so the architecture is in keeping with a broad market, but it's enjoyable.  The three or four times I played it was on the wet side, but that's maintenance and not architecture.  

The interesting thing about the course was the effort Kay put into the re-creation of the famed Lido hole -- the one Mackenzie made famous in his design contest submission. The hole at McCullough's doesn't have a major water backstop in the action but it still works quite well and frankly the course provides a number of interesting design elements with overseas linkages.

The only real notable letdowns in my mind are the two weak holes across the road -- #15 and #16 -- and the lame closing hole which would have been much better if the water on the right side were put in closer to the driving zone -- especially as short as the hole plays.

Have others played the course and what were your impressions ?

Matt,

  I didn't think 15 and 16 were all that bad--there was a smallish piece of land to fit a few holes on--15 is a layup and a wedge, green has hat big slope in it that can be used as a backstop, and 16 is a fun hole to try get close to the pin on.   I thought 14 was the weakest hole, it's just narrow and straight, and really doesn't do too much, but again, considering the land available, it may have been the best alternative available.

Front nine is overall good and fun.  Any possible improvements in my mind would be a more traditional biarritz green at 2.  3 green feels almost too small, this may be true for the hole that provided inspiration.  

I don't see any problem with the 7th hole as it is--come on Matt, do we really need elevated tees everywhere?  Half the fun is picking a line and executing, or not.  And, the penalty isn't that bad, the waste area isn't that unkempt, unless your ball disappears in the scrub and weeds on the edges.

10 is tough with a good green.  11 is a fun hole to blast driver on and see how close you can get to the green.  Good vistas from up there--it feels like the highest point in Atlantic County! (It's not, the highest point in the county is near the NJT line outside of Hammonton--bit of useless trivia for y'all).  12 is tough, 13 was deceiving, distance-wise.  Looked to be a lot of dead grass on that green when I played at the end of July.  Maybe because of the trees and air circulation?  17 is fun to go for in 2.  18 is ok for a closer.  

I really like it, it's a much better value than BHP and Seaview, maybe a little cheaper than Renault and Twisted.  Pace of play may be an issue, but again, this is management, not architecture.  Play it early or late in day.  I'd love to play it when it's really dry.  I would like to see bigger greens all around.  My fiancee lives right up the road about 10-15mins, and every weekend we'd be coming back from Ocean City or Longport beach and it looked so inviting to play, late afternoon in the summer.  
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 10:10:23 PM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Kyle Harris

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2009, 10:15:21 PM »
Very fond of McCullough's. I agree with Doug that the 14th is perhaps the weaker hole than either 15 or 16.

The 3rd hole is quite near an ideal par 5 as any, especially with such disaster lurking on an aggressive second shot. The 4th is another interesting hole with some quirky topo around the green.

I don't quite understand the criticism of the holes across the street, other than perhaps the location amongst the trees. Perhaps 15 is a bit of a clunker when it comes to tournament play, but it's not really a bad hole - just a bit of a breeze.

Another plus. I am searching my memory for a really bland green on the course and I can't think of one. Perhaps the 2nd hole, which is a rather benign attempt at a Biarritz.

Perhaps MOST appealing for me is the 10-12 stretch. Especially the 12th, which seemingly plays down the back of a giant elephant but also rewards aggressive play.

Matt_Ward

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2009, 09:22:09 PM »
Doug / Kyle:

Regarding the 15th and 16th holes -- they were CRAMMED into the little closet space of land across the street. They have zero / nada flow to what you see with the others -- frankly, they reminded me of the silly nonsense one plays in a number of layouts on the Grand Strand.

Doug, I only suggested a slightly elevated tee on the 7th -- not the inane tee box created for the 18th at RiverWinds. The elevation would break into focus -- much more so than now -- the unique design elements the hole brings to bear.

One other thing -- the 18th is "ok for a closer." Doug -- you really believe that? The hole is simply a lame ender in which the H20 could have been worked closer into the picture.

One final thing Doug -- the place is generally kept wetter than it should be. I agree with you 100% -- would love to see the course play really firm.

All in all, McCullough's is a good bargain for what it provides although a number of the surrounding public layouts in the immediate vicinity weren't too pleased that a taxpayer-supported layout sprung up in their midst with such fees compared to what they are charging.

Michael Mimran

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2009, 09:52:50 PM »
What's the take on Manhattan Woods?  I'm going to be playing there next week.  How much of it was Kay and how much was Player?

Troy Alderson

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2009, 02:12:02 PM »
Jay,

Stephen was my architecture instructor at the Professional Golf Turf Management program at Rutgers U.  He is an excellent architect and deserves more recognition.  LND is a great design in a great setting.  Good to see him mentioned here on GCA.

Troy

Troy,

  When did you attend RU?  Was on Cook Campus--I graduated 1999/2000.

Doug, 1994/1995 Cook Campus

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2009, 11:47:01 PM »
Jay,

Stephen was my architecture instructor at the Professional Golf Turf Management program at Rutgers U.  He is an excellent architect and deserves more recognition.  LND is a great design in a great setting.  Good to see him mentioned here on GCA.

Troy

Troy,

  When did you attend RU?  Was on Cook Campus--I graduated 1999/2000.

Doug, 1994/1995 Cook Campus

Troy-

Thanks-so you were about 5 years ahead of me.  Great place to go to school.  Cook was actually my entry into the Golf Club industry, through an internship at Jasna Polana (the TPC in Princeton, NJ); 1998 was the year of opening-it was a great experience to work on CGCS Roger Stewart's staff.  I owe so much to him, even though I'm not in the profession any more. 

Matt-to answer your questions-so we're basically on the same page with MEGL.  What's your take on the sizes of the greens and green pads?  Would you prefer them larger?

Re: 18, I chopped it up when I played.  I'd like to play it again-I didn't say it was bad.  For another Kay in the area, I really liked BHP West.  I am a bit unhappy I never played East-I had opportunities to do so and just didn't.  Would also like to see Harbor Pines.  I don't know the mandates from the developer, Gurwicz, but, from looking at the pictures of the course available on the website and related aerials, it seems he was going for an Augusta/PV/Pinehurst thing.  The more time I spend down there, the more I like that part f NJ.
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Matt_Ward

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2009, 01:00:30 AM »
Doug:

You raise a very good point -- making the greens larger and with wider usage of internal and external contours would have added a good bit to the scheme and motif of the design.

In regards to BHP/West -- I'd play MEGL seven times and leave just three rounds out of BHP/West. I never understood the fanfare that many apply to BHP/West -- sad to say the East Course was lost and Steve Smyers did a solid job there -- given the dead flat terrain.

Doug, you can skip Harbor Pines - looks great but would be a good choiice for the "dumb blonde" award that Doak givs for courses that appear marvelous on tue surface but have little real architectural heft. Candidly, I would recommend places like Sea Oaks and Vineyard by Renault and even a quick foray to the George Fazio created Atlantis in Tiuckerton -- now called Ocean County at Atlantis.




Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2009, 12:19:58 PM »
You don't like Blue Heron, Matt?  How come?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Matt_Ward

Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2009, 12:36:27 PM »
Jay:

Sad to say much of southeast Jersey golf is impacted by the boring non-descript property -- although there are exceptions in a few spots.

Blue Heron Pines / West is a decent layout but frankly I would not recommend it to those who live beyond a 50-mile radius. Kay has done far better in later work -- Links of ND, Unionvale, Scotland Run, McCullough's, etc, etc. The routing is farily elementary and the hole challenges, while they are visually interesting are, for the most part, pedestrian and fairly ho-hum.

Play the likes of Renault, Sea Oaks and Atlantis as I previously opined and you will see what I mean.

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scotland Run/Stephen Kay
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2009, 01:06:32 PM »
Jay:

Sad to say much of southeast Jersey golf is impacted by the boring non-descript property -- although there are exceptions in a few spots.

Blue Heron Pines / West is a decent layout but frankly I would not recommend it to those who live beyond a 50-mile radius. Kay has done far better in later work -- Links of ND, Unionvale, Scotland Run, McCullough's, etc, etc. The routing is farily elementary and the hole challenges, while they are visually interesting are, for the most part, pedestrian and fairly ho-hum.

Play the likes of Renault, Sea Oaks and Atlantis as I previously opined and you will see what I mean.

McCoullough's is a nice hilly track thanks to the previous owners!  They did well to make a solid golf course out of a landfill!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"