[mike_malone]

I came back from  my UK golf experince with the thought that the US courses can only achieve a distant second place behind the UK. And I haven't played the heathland greats yet.


   My criterion for great golf is the variety of fun golf shots found during the play of a single round. The wind, the turf, the green surrounds  provide way more variety of fun shots than we are capable of replicating. I certainly don't think modern enginerring and building can do it.

[Mark Pearce]

Mike,

One of my lasting memories of BUDA will be the extended conversation Andrew, Scott, you and I had on the Tuesday afternoon at Royal St Georges regarding the quality of RSG and how it compared to the great American courses you had played (and, in particular, Merion).  Somewhere between the 4th fairway and 17th tee you were truly converted!

Mark

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - to borrow your phrase, that's one of the coolest things I've ever read about golf courses on here - the directness and succinct-ness of it. I can't know if I agree with you or not (I've never been to the UK), but if I did it would probably be because of the turf, and what lies beneath it.  It knits everything together (looks-wise) and allows for/engenders a wide array of shots and shot tests (architecturally and playability-wise)

Maybe it's not so different now in North America than it was 90 years ago -- it's still all about growing grass...

Peter

[TEPaul]

"Maybe it's not so different now in North America than it was 90 years ago -- it's still all about growing grass..."


PeterP:

You're right about that. What we should've done 90 years ago and should be doing today is to just leave the grass alone as they tend to do over there. That old saying is probably true to say that we are always trying to get the grass to grow over here (so we can cut it more often I guess) while over there they try to stop the grass from growing!

[Bill_McBride]

Every time I go over to the UK for a week or two of links golf, it takes me about a month to get enthused about American golf again. 

Maybe it's because of the cooler weather over there (vs here on the Gulf Coast  ), but I do prefer playing over there in so many ways.  The maintenance meld is truly F&F.  There is an infinite variety of shots you can play.  It's ever so much easier to walk.  There are no carts.  The greens are naturally contoured and run 8-10 as a general rule.  The bunkers are truly penal and there's no rough in front of them

Those who haven't been over might want to (A) go on, do it, you'll love it; or (B) stay home and not have that month of cooling off!   

[TEPaul]

BillB:

You're right for the reasons you gave in that last post, reasons most on this website believe in and support, generally speaking golf in America can't really compete with golf abroad and it never could.

When I reflect back on that week in the hot summer of 1999 when I played 18 holes of golf every morning at daybreak alone on that funky little Malone Ireland golf course to be home to the castle before the rest of the family and guests even got up, I realize what a revelation it truly was to me compared to all the golf I had played previously at most of the finest golf courses in America.

The only thing I had seen that matched that experience was NGLA just before the NGLA Singles tournament. That time evoked my IMM and that was a Blue Thunder experience!

I would even venture to say that real golf should probably be as much or even more ground-based than air based and it is just so ironic that the good old US of A either totally misunderstood that or virtually destroyed it for reasons that still need to be and are being sorted out.

[Sean_A]

Mayday

It can be done in the States, but only rarely and usually with a big budget.  Just as cartball golf and proper golf are different animals so is GB&I golf and USA golf.  I opined on another thread, architecture is really only the small end of the problem.  I am not sure Yanks are ready for GB&I style golf on a daily basis because they worry too much about conditions.  Once that sort of thinking combined with agronomy improvements gets a foothold it is like an arms race.  That said, I guess if clubs are shelling out $200,000 for a HEAD Greenkeeper and who knows how much more to get the place up to scratch then I spose the members should get upset when things go wrong.  Its a totally different way of looking at golf courses and what there purpose is.  Mind you many clubs in the UK started to follow more of the American style of maintenance, but hopefully this latest trend of allowing the fine grasses to flourish will well and truly take hold and stay that way. 

Ciao

[Kevin Pallier]

I came back from  my UK golf experince with the thought that the US courses can only achieve a distant second place behind the UK. And I haven't played the heathland greats yet.

   My criterion for great golf is the variety of fun golf shots found during the play of a single round. The wind, the turf, the green surrounds  provide way more variety of fun shots than we are capable of replicating.

Mike

What courses offer "the variety of fun golf shots" you talk about above in the US ?

[Mike Sweeney]

   My criterion for great golf is the variety of fun golf shots found during the play of a single round. The wind, the turf, the green surrounds  provide way more variety of fun shots than we are capable of replicating. I certainly don't think modern enginerring and building can do it.

Mayday,

While I agree with your basic concept and wonder what Maidstone would be ranked if it was located in Ireland, I do think you go too far. Take a sand based course, add in an interesting design and turn off the sprinklers:



The Deltona Club at roughly $45 during peak Florida tourist season.

[Mark Pearce]

Mike,

An interesting picture but I'm willing to bet that that fairway is flatter than any fairway Mayday played on during his visit over here.  Firm and fast is one requirement but movement is just as important, without it we might as well play on motorways.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mark,

I started in Florida!

Mayday lives in Philly and going to the Jersey Shore (with sand based courses) is a big trip!

Without pulling pics from each one, Pine Valley, Eastward Ho!, Cape Cod National ........ all have sand, wild terrain and to varying degrees wind.

I think one of the larger X factors is the US larger green budgets. They may work against us.

Deltona has pretty much always been browish and with a $45 green fee, they probably can't afford to overseed for the tourist season, and this is what makes the place fun for me.

Mountain Lake was all sorts of colors of purple and brown a few years ago, but recently the sprinklers have been on. Back in the brown era, they would have one or two greens a season that would get a little iffy conditioning wise. I say let's have some iffy greens to match the brown fairways (and lower fees!).

PS. Friendly reminder that I am a member of Enniscrone in Ireland, so I "get" what Mayday and you are talking about.

[Mark Pearce]

Mike,

Got you.  An obsession with green is a bad thing for fun on the golf course.  I suspect one of the reasons Mayday had so much fun was that the South East of England hadn't seen any real rain for weeks before BUDA.

[Scott Warren]

Ironically, Deal was playing "faster" around the greens in late autumn and early winter due to the ground still being very firm, but the meadow grass not being in among the fescue.

Anything landing on the slope left of the 7th green, right of the 17th or at the front of the 15th fed in more effectively than has been the case in summer.

The greens also seem to run quicker "out of season" and I am told this is for the same reason.

[Mark Pearce]

Scott,

I'm sure that's right.  Which is another reason that Gordon's programme to get rid of the meadow grass is exciting.  Too many links courses (including, sadly, Crail, as I mentioned during the Q&A after his presentation) have overwatered and over-fertilised to maintain greeness, with the unfiortunate side effect of encouraging broader leafed grasses.

[mike_malone]

 Mr. Sweeney,

    The use of machinery versus hand work around greens is another part of the equation. I bet Enniscrone used machines for its work. That is probably one reason for my feeling of "resort" golf there.

   If Deltona had the bucks would they keep the look you see?


   I grew up on the DuPont courses and the Nemours course did not have a watering system. I always  enjoyed golf there in August.
     

[Dan Boerger]

I came back from  my UK golf experince with the thought that the US courses can only achieve a distant second place behind the UK. And I haven't played the heathland greats yet.


Mike - I hope you get to do so someday. If so, and if your experience will be anything like mine, I think you'll be blown away at the quality and variety of heathland courses in and around Surrey. -Dan

[Mike Sweeney]

The use of machinery versus hand work around greens is another part of the equation. I bet Enniscrone used machines for its work. That is probably one reason for my feeling of "resort" golf there.

Eddie Hackett holes clearly did not use machinery around greens. Old Eddie just was not too detailed. on the Donald Steel holes clearly machines were used.

If you were talking about day to day maintenance practice around the greens, you would know better because I have not been there for far too long.

If Deltona had the bucks would they keep the look you see?

To make 1500 golfers happy here at GCA, probably not. In Florida in the winter, tourist like to see green grass.    

[Rory Connaughton]

Mike:

 Regarding Enniscrone, as I understand your reference to machines vs. handwork you are talking about construction not maintenance. Is this correct?

[Ulrich Mayring]

Links golf is a different game than "regular golf" on most days. But let's not forget that we had ideal conditions at BUDA. Links golf also means driving rain and a howling wind in your face that takes all irons out of your bag except the longest. It just isn't a lot of fun to keep hitting the biggest stick you can possibly lay upon the ball. The finer strategies of the ground game are moot on some days, when there is so little control over the ball that just staying on the golf course is a challenge - never mind trying to hit a certain bump in the fairway.

At the best of times, and we had those at BUDA, links courses are superior to anything else I know. But to be totally honest, a charming, sunny day on a well-designed inland course, flat as it may be, but with a light breeze is more enjoyable to me than in borderline conditions on the links.

Yes, it's fun to play in high winds every now and then, it's a challenge and all, but it does get old.

Ulrich

[Scott Warren]

Ulrich,

Just another reason the southern English links shouldn't get overlooked by tourists the way they are in favour of Scotland and Ireland: the weather you enjoyed at Buda is typical. In more than 20 rounds over Deal, Sandwich, Rye, Trevose, St Enodoc and Prince's, I have been rained on for the grand total of half a hole and played in stupidly high winds just once!

[Mark Pearce]

And another reason not to ignore some of the shorter, second tier Scottish courses.  It really isn't that wet on the East coast but the wind can get up.  However, even in strong winds courses like Crail Balcomie and Elie remain great fun.  Indeed I'd say that Elie needs a 15 mile an hour wind to really come into its own.

[ed_getka]

I came back from  my UK golf experince with the thought that the US courses can only achieve a distant second place behind the UK. And I haven't played the heathland greats yet.


   My criterion for great golf is the variety of fun golf shots found during the play of a single round. The wind, the turf, the green surrounds  provide way more variety of fun shots than we are capable of replicating. I certainly don't think modern enginerring and building can do it.

Mayday,
   You need to get out more. Bandon Dunes complex, Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Kingsley Club, Prairie Dunes, etc..  I think the US can do okay, I certainly wouldn't say it is a "distant second". I will concede that Royal Dornoch is the best course I have played to date. Sand Hills still remains my favorite.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mayday,
   You need to get out more. Bandon Dunes complex, Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Kingsley Club, Prairie Dunes, etc..  I think the US can do okay, I certainly wouldn't say it is a "distant second".

Ed,

You are an East Coast guy now. Bandon and SE England are about the same distance and London is easier to get to.

The rest of your clubs are private and logistically difficult to get to. It is hard to say this, but Mayday is not entirely wrong. Probably 20+ heathland and links courses within 2 hours of London airports that are on somebody's Top 100 list. You can join Deal for the price of two days at Bandon. I am drinking the SE England juice. 

[mike_malone]

  The main difference for me this time overseas was---COMPETITION.

While my tee game was horrendous, I still found that competition enhanced my appreciation of the architecture.



    And I am speaking of hand building  not maintenance.

   Ed,

    I mean second tier not second rate.

[ed_getka]

Mayday,
   You need to get out more. Bandon Dunes complex, Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Kingsley Club, Prairie Dunes, etc..  I think the US can do okay, I certainly wouldn't say it is a "distant second".

Ed,

You are an East Coast guy now. Bandon and SE England are about the same distance and London is easier to get to.

The rest of your clubs are private and logistically difficult to get to. It is hard to say this, but Mayday is not entirely wrong. Probably 20+ heathland and links courses within 2 hours of London airports that are on somebody's Top 100 list. You can join Deal for the price of two days at Bandon. I am drinking the SE England juice. 

Mike,
    I'm sure I will be drinking the juice too when I make that next big trip across the pond. And certainly when you factor in accessibility my list has issues. Then again I can substitute in Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon without much drop off.

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