Shuttles instead of cart-only - financially possible? plausible?

[J Sadowsky]

Given that we've discussed that some courses would not have been built, or not had been built with meaningful quality, if f it weren't for golf carts, is there a way to make those courses "walking" (or even "walking only"?  Instead of carts on the course, the course would pay employees to take golf carts out only to those areas between holes (or between a teeing ground and the fairway) where walking is difficult or impossible, and the price of those shuttles would be included in the greens fee.

Obviously, this would only work at high-end daily fee courses, but most top unwalkable courses are in fact high-end daily fee courses.

What do people think of this concept (particularly those who manage golf courses)?  It's probably an unworkable idea, but every time I play a golf-cart only course, I am clearly thinking how I can spend as little time in the cart as possible, and shuttles would be a godsend for me.

[Mike Sweeney]

I think we miss the point here at GCA.com. 1500 of us want to walk, and the rest of the world wants to ride. It is the golfers, not the carts.

Melvin is not 100% wrong!

[Jon Heise]

As a player, I'd be fine with it.  They had a shuttle between 9-10 at the Ocean Course.  

Obviously, this would only work at high-end daily fee courses, but most top unwalkable courses are in fact high-end daily fee courses.

I think it would be doable at a medium level course as long as its only in 1 or 2 spots.  You'd only have to pay one extra kid per shift to do it...

[Carl Nichols]

I recently played Ocean Forest on Sea Island, which is *very* walkable except for the walk from the 18th green back to the clubhouse (and to a lesser extent from 9 to 10).  They leave a few carts at 9 and 18 for walkers to hop on, and I suspect that the expense is minimal.  It certainly worked for me. 

Congressional leaves large carts (the kind that can hold 4-6 people) near the now-18th green because you have to drive around the pond/lake to get back to the clubhouse.   

[Jim Franklin]

Caves Valley has a few carts to tote people to different tees which works for me. It is not an easy walk anyway.

[Rich Goodale]

I'd prefer a ski tow sort of system, which you could use with skateboards rented out by the club (at a healthy profit, I'm sure).

[David_Tepper]

Indian Valley in Marin County, CA has an elevator to take walking golfers from one green to the next tee. It can be done! 

[Sean Leary]

At my course, the walk from 10 green to 11 green is difficult. The club puts carts there for people to take, and then drop off in the same place after hitting tee shot on 13 . It actually works well.

[C. Squier]

I think we miss the point here at GCA.com. 1500 of us want to walk, and the rest of the world wants to ride. It is the golfers, not the carts.

Melvin is not 100% wrong!

On some mountain courses, I believe he is.  Some are near impossible to traverse by foot with your clubs on your back.  I believe there are an extreme few here or elsewhere who could walk Stone Eagle (just one example) in July carrying their own clubs. 

[Scott_Burroughs]

Hasentree in Wake Forest, NC leaves carts for the walkers (of which there are not many) to use for the 3 long treks between holes.  Actually, one of the treks wasn't that long...thought that one was overkill.  I heard from a member that the asst pros love running the carts out & around, as it gets them away from the clubhouse for a bit.

Any time I'm playing with other members at my club, I just hop on the back of their carts for the 4 long treks.  

[Rob Rigg]

Tetherow had an interesting idea to get more people to walk - they have a 4 bag cart that is driven by the forecaddie.

On the really long green to tee transfers everyone (probably except the forecaddie ) hops in the cart, or hangs onto it, to get from green to tee.

On the other holes I guess you can either carry or just leave your bag on the cart. Never seen it in action but it is an interesting idea.

The shuttle at Trails from 13th Green to 14th Tee is VERY helpful - that is a long uphill hike.

At Summit in Toronto they used to have a "rope tow" to help you get from the 5th green to the 6th tee because it was a steep ascent - that also worked okay. Regardless, everyone would be almost out of breath and the top and about 90% of the members continue to walk (there was also a long way up there will a less severe incline).

This is a great idea and shows a lot of commitment by the course to walkers.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I'd walk Stone Eagle in a heartbeat if the temperature was below, say, 85-90.

[J Sadowsky]

Thanks for the replies - I'd also like to hear from architects if this is something they think about or discuss with the owner when trying to build a course?  If this is something the owner is willing to work on, then it could get designers away from a Hobson's choice of walking course/cart course.

Also, if anyone wants to show me how the Caves Valley or Congo cart systems work in person, I wouldn't complain too much

[Norbert P]

At Devil's Thumb (Rick Phelps) in Delta, Colorado, they have a couple of carts waiting for a two hole jaunt where you use it for those two holes and then leave the cart there on your return.  It's a bit odd but the first hole is worth the choice of the routing going out there; can't remember the second hole in that stretch, though.    Could it have been routed better? Jeez, it's been 7-8 years since I was there.  I don't know.  Nice course though.



"There's no such thing as the devil;
that's just God when he's drunk."  Tom Waites

[Tim Leahy]

I can't understand you walkers, first you want to walk for the exercise, then if you have to walk a couple of hundred yards between holes or up a hill you need a shuttle.  You want to build walking only courses that lock out a majority of the golfing public yet still want shuttles because you would get too tired to play good golf if you actually had to walk a couple of extra yards. Just admit it, you want that cart, you need that cart

[DMoriarty]

I think we miss the point here at GCA.com. 1500 of us want to walk, and the rest of the world wants to ride. It is the golfers, not the carts.

Melvin is not 100% wrong!

On some mountain courses, I believe he is.  Some are near impossible to traverse by foot with your clubs on your back.  I believe there are an extreme few here or elsewhere who could walk Stone Eagle (just one example) in July carrying their own clubs. 

I'd walk Stone Eagle in a heartbeat if the temperature was below, say, 85-90.

Clint, In fairness I don't think many people would want to walk any course in the desert in July, except maybe early in the morning.

But Stone Eagle is a very interesting example.   Most consider it unwalkable, yet they took walking into consideration in the design and construction.   The 7th tee would be a hike but even there they have a subtle alternate teeing area.  I haven't had the opportunity to walk the course but hope to someday.   I am very curious as to whether it walks easier than it looks.   Not in July though.   I'm not that insane.

___________________________

Tim,  I see you are joking and get your meaning even if you are not, but a big advantage of a shuttle is about the pacing.   If carts and golfers are sharing the course these extremely long walks can really mess things up.   The carts just zip over, but it takes the walker a while whether he is in shape or not.     Kapalua Plantation is a good example of this.   The rest of the course might be walkable, but the big walk between 5 and 6 would take forever and probably screw up the rounds of those with you and behind you.   

[Dan Herrmann]

David - you have a really good point about pacing.  If anybody has any ideas on how to address this "issue", lemme know!

[DMoriarty]

David - you have a really good point about pacing.  If anybody has any ideas on how to address this "issue", lemme know!

Run, Forrest, Run!

[Dan Herrmann]

David - You just described Joe Bausch - I thought I walked fairly quickly, but boy, does he move.  Joe is a model for pace of play.

[Garland Bayley]

At Devil's Thumb (Rick Phelps) in Delta, Colorado, they have a couple of carts waiting for a two hole jaunt where you use it for those two holes and then leave the cart there on your return.  It's a bit odd but the first hole is worth the choice of the routing going out there; can't remember the second hole in that stretch, though.    Could it have been routed better? Jeez, it's been 7-8 years since I was there.  I don't know.  Nice course though.



"There's no such thing as the devil;
that's just God when he's drunk."  Tom Waites

Same idea at Bully Pulpit for 14, 15, 16 where the course leaves the Little Missouri River Valley and climbs into the badlands to play those holes which are very dramatic. They didn't have a name for the course until Ron Whitten stood on the 16th tee and uttered "talk about a bully pulpit." The course of course is just outside Teddy R Natl Prk.

[Rob Rigg]

I can't understand you walkers, first you want to walk for the exercise, then if you have to walk a couple of hundred yards between holes or up a hill you need a shuttle.  You want to build walking only courses that lock out a majority of the golfing public yet still want shuttles because you would get too tired to play good golf if you actually had to walk a couple of extra yards. Just admit it, you want that cart, you need that cart

Tim,

Looks like you were joking but just in case -

I think the hope is that having a shuttle at long green/tee transfers will encourage people who would ride for 18 to basically walk 18 and get a little help along the way. Then at least they get a solid 5 or 6 mile workout instead of 7 - which seems to be the breaking point for a lot of people.

Not sure if this would make a difference but it is a reasonable thought.

I don't mind walking courses with one or two long green to tee transfers but it is certainly not ideal from a "round flow" perspective. Also, if the tee sheet is packed then the cart group could pass the walking group on a long enough green to tee transfer (which I guess is okay but probably not what anyone wants).

Of course - if you are in a beautiful location on a day when the course is empty - then a bit of a walk on a couple of holes can be kind of nice.

[Bill_McBride]

Rancho San Marcos just north of Santa Barbara is a course where a good shuttle program would really allow walking.  There are two long uphill walks on the first part of the back nine so most people ride.

David Tepper, i grew up playing Indian Valley when it opened in the mid '50s.  The elevator from #13 green up to #14 is essential, it was hell the few times it broke down and we had to hike up that steep hill.

[Mike Nuzzo]

it is the cart path not the cart that is the problem

[Rob Rigg]

Mike,

That is true, but doesn't the addition of carts, and the damage that they do, mean that cart paths are necessary?

And with the cart path option comes the ability to add more of it even if it has nothing to do with a hole on the golf course?

Chicken or the egg?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Justin,
Shuttles can work and be econmically feasible at the same time. One employee might equal one to one or two green fees and the cost of leasing the vehicle is very little, $5.00 per day at most. 

Dan,
A lot depends on the length of the walk. Once a walking 4some leaves a green the trailing group, in carts, won't even reach that green for about 5 minutes, and that's if all goes well.  They'll be chipping and putting on that green for another 5 minutes before they start on their way to the next hole, plus, it will take them at least 1 minute to travel 1/4 mile in their carts.
The walkers could have 12 minutes or so to reach the next tee and hit their tee shots, so a walk of around 1/2 mile would mean that the riders catch them on the next tee. If the groups are walker, walker, rider there is no problem with pace as the first group in the sequence will still be in the fairway of the 'next' hole. If the groups are rider, walker, rider there will be some problems. That's where a shuttle comes in, or better yet, the tee sheet gets properly arranged in the first place.