Spotty Greens at the Walker Cup?

[DMoriarty]

No, I'm not using "spotty" to mean bad or inconsistent.  To the contrary, given the weather preceding the match the playing conditions looked excellent, at least on television.  I assume that the XDG drainage had something to do with it, but even so the maintenance crew must have done a terrific job.

I'm using "spotty" to mean spotty.  As in covered with spots.  While the spots did not appear to impact the roll of the ball at all, a trustworthy attendee confirmed that the greens had small dark spots arranged in closely spaced lines, like you find on greens that had been recently aerated.  When I inquired about this in another thread a few actually tried to address the issue despite the bizarre direction the thread took.  Of those who actually answered, a few suggested that these were not likely punch marks or verticut tracks because Merion prefers not to disturb the green surface when maintaining the green.   (See the Surface Tension thread.)    I've no idea if this is the case or not, but it makes me even more curious about these lines of spots, and my still unanswered question:

Why did the greens at the Walker Cup look spotty?

Joe Bausch was kind enough to provide us with a link to his terrific photo tour of the course and SOME of the photos were apparently taken just a few days before Walker Cup Match.  WHILE NOT TAKEN DAYS BEFORE THE WALKER CUP These photos show a bit of what I am talking about, although in the photos the marks look like lines, rather than lines of spots. 

NOTE:  I HAVE BEEN INFORMED BY JOE THAT NONE OF THE LINKED PHOTOGRAPHS WERE TAKEN JUST DAYS BEFORE THE WALKER CUP MATCHES.   THEY SHOULD THEREFORE NOT BE CONSTRUED TO REPRESENT THE CONDITIONS AT THE WALKER CUP.

Below is a section of the first green created by cropping a section of on one of these photos in photoshop.  Joe's entire photo can be found at http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/MEast_combo/mediafiles/l10.jpg.



Below is a section of the fifth green created by cropping a section of on one of these photos in photoshop.  Joe's entire photo can be found at  http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/MEast_combo/mediafiles/l58.jpg in photoshop.  Note that the lines extend beyond the green and into the surrounding fairway. 



And below are links to two more of Joe's photos where the lines are very visible.   [EDIT]

12th Green:  http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/MEast_combo/mediafiles/l151.jpg

16th Green:  http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/MEast_combo/mediafiles/l200.jpg

[Ian Larson]

Dave,

Pictures are the best way to show what someone is talking about when it comes to the agronomics of a golf course, especially to the untrained eye.

From what Im seeing it looks like matt did a very aggressive verticutting within a month of the Walker Cup. If Im wrong on that it would have to be an aerification with small tines and tight spacing. I say that not from what I see on the greens, but from what Im seeing outside the greens on the collar. The lines in the collar are an indication of an aggressive verticutting that is still healing. When I say aggressive, I mean Graden aggressive. A Graden machine is a verticutting machine that different sized discs can be used for however wide and deep you want the cut to be and how much organic matter you want removed.

On the green itself it does look like their was an aerification, more so than a solid tine. It looks like matt actually took out cores with hollow tines. And good for him, I think that was a smart move. The verticutting combined with probably a topdressing and an aerification really got those greens rolling firm and smooth no matter how much rain he thought the tournament might get.

But this just goes to prove that Merion obviously isnt practicing a No Disturbance theory method. And that Matt isnt necessarily always trying to maintain a high surface tension. This shows that he is also thinking of getting the water through the soil profile and maintaining a firm surface with the removal of organic matter.

Can anyone comment on the grass type on the greens? Are they 100%...mostly...kinda or not at all bentgrass, being mostly poa?

Good pics Dave

[Don_Mahaffey]

looks like a Graden to me...also looks like they'll play just fine...what was the problem again?

[JeffTodd]

I know next to nothing about agronomy or course maintenance, but having attended both days at the Walker Cup I thought they absolutely looked like they had been aerated, recently enough to be clearly visible. That said, the ball appeared to roll beautifully all weekend. I, and another GCAer, walked the front nine and perimeters #1 thru #10 greens in solitude after play finished on Saturday, so perhaps I had a better view than most in attendance.

[Joe Bausch]

David, every photo you linked to above was taken either last fall (note the color of the leaves) or much earlier this spring (note the lack of leaves).  I'm pretty sure that in that album only those photos that were taken from a perched view were shot within 10 days of the WC.

[DMoriarty]

David, every photo you linked to above was taken either last fall (note the color of the leaves) or much earlier this spring (note the lack of leaves).  I'm pretty sure that in that album only those photos that were taken from a perched view were shot within 10 days of the WC.

Joe,   Thanks for the clarification.   

Am I losing my mind or did you or have you changed a number of the descriptions on this photo tour since I posted my thread?    Did you change the descriptions on the first two?   Because I recall  that captions said the photos were taken a few days before the Walker Cup.    In fact I went back and checked to make sure before I posted, because the last two links did not contain a similar description.

[Joe Bausch]

David, every photo you linked to above was taken either last fall (note the color of the leaves) or much earlier this spring (note the lack of leaves).  I'm pretty sure that in that album only those photos that were taken from a perched view were shot within 10 days of the WC.

Joe,   Thanks for the clarification.   

Am I losing my mind or did you or have you changed a number of the descriptions on this photo tour since I posted my thread?    Did you change the descriptions on the first two?   Because I recall  that captions said the photos were taken a few days before the Walker Cup.    In fact I went back and checked to make sure before I posted, because the last two links did not contain a similar description.

I've not changed any photo captions for many days now.  I think that I wrote something like "taken x days before the 2009 WC" to any photo in the album that was taken in the days before the event.

[JeffTodd]

None of Joe's photos look anything like the condition of the course, as I recall it, and a few of them are obviously out of season. The only photo in which the green looks at all similar to my recollection is that of #16, but with the changing leaves in the background you can be certain that photo was not taken recently.

[Ian Larson]

The observation on the seasons was a good one. However it only strengthens the case that Merion is an aerifying and verticutting golf course.

Which makes me ask again....are the greens 100%...mostly...kinda...not at all bent. Or all poa? If they are mostly bent, how many years since they've been regrassed to bent?

[DMoriarty]

Joe, This really surprises me because I would have sworn that the first two photos (and others) said something like ". . . just a few days before . . .." That is why I wrote what I did in my first post.   Had those particular photos said "9 days before" I'd have included that, because 9 is more than a few.   Strange.   But stranger still is that these photos don't even mention the Walker Cup, even though when I went back to check before I posted the first two did and the second two didn't.    

Is it possible that I accessed a past version.  

By the way, I now see what you are talking about with the leaves, but I was going by the labels on the photos themselves.  Or at least I thought I was.

And while you are here Joe, you were apparently there nine days before and also at the tournament, so I assume you saw the marks to which I refer, didn't you?   Any idea what they were?  

[Mike Lacey]

I was fortunate enough to spend most of Friday at Merion (my first visit).  The very foul weather kept most folks off the course and granted the hearty virtually full access to its wonder.  After our self directed tour, we struck up a conversation with one of the caddies, who took us on a guided tour of 11, 12 and 13.  He stated that he had a degree in agronomy and was very knowledgable about the very soggy turf we were tromping across.  

The visual texture of the putting surfaces was one of the many lasting impressions I took from the day.  We spent a fair bit of time examining the 12th Green.  I am no agronomist, but there appeared to be several different varieties of bent on the greens, ranging from very fine to relatively course textures, and exhititing significant varitiation in color.  I believe I read somewhere that there were 5 varieties of bent on the greens.  They are definately not a monoculture.  I had the impression that Merion cared alot more about how they played than how they looked.  

I did not observe much poa.  I took a photo of the 12th Green to try to capture this but, given conditions, it did not come out very well.  

[Dan Herrmann]

I spent quite some time about 5' from several greens (10, 11, 12, 18, etc...)

I'm happy to report all looked and played great.  There were no defects anywhere.

But I can report that the TV picture quality was quite poor compared to the real thing.  This TV coverage wasn't exactly CBS at the Masters - the PQ was fair at best and didn't come close to capturing just how wonderful the greens were.

And Mike is 100% correct.  Merion's greens have several varieties of bentgrass which present a wide variety of color compared to a one- or two-variant green.    You may have mistaken the variety for "spotty", but believe me, the greens were perfect.

[Ian Larson]

Dave,

The marks would have been the remnants of all of what you see in the pics. Greens can be rolling fantastic while still having the remnants appearant. Especially where there is sand blast out of the bunkers, the sand can really expose them.

The different sets of pictures with the obvious different seasons shows that Matt does aeriffy and verticut and topdress. If the question here is did Matt do these cultural practices right before the Walker Cup? Absolutely not, these cultural practices would have been done well in advance of the tournament. Especially with verticutting with a Graden because its so aggressive and takes time to heal.

The picture also shows some work being done out on the approach and fairway with all the splotches of sand. This is definetely not the week of the tournament, or the week before.

With this all said....there is NOTHING WRONG AT ALL with what you are seeing in these pictures or with what you have seen on the greens the week of the tournament. There is nothing to speculate or argue over. Matt groomed his greens in preparation of a big tournament like he was supposed too.

And for anyone trying to figure out what the spots were on the green or what the lines were....who cares with all due respect. Matt doesnt care what what the greens look like aesthetically as long as they play great. And they did....

So lets just chalk this one up as Matt and his staff at Merion doing another great job with the course, and actually executing what we all on GCA preach to one another.....not giving a shit about some brown spots, some lines, some circles. Just putting a final product of fast, firm and smooth out there.


...as I was about to post this Mike and Dan posted. If the spottiness was observed in bentgrass greens, that is because a mix or a blend was used and the varities within the mixture have segregated.

If its confirmed that there is little to no poa, can any of the supers that have supported the "No Disturbance Theory" chime in and tell us how Matt Shaffer is keeping poa out of his greens while he is obviously doing all the cultural practices you have ceased to implement based on a "theory".

[Joe Bausch]

Joe, This really surprises me because I would have sworn that the first two photos (and others) said something like ". . . just a few days before . . .." That is why I wrote what I did in my first post.   Had those particular photos said "9 days before" I'd have included that, because 9 is more than a few.   Strange.   But stranger still is that these photos don't even mention the Walker Cup, even though when I went back to check before I posted the first two did and the second two didn't.    

Is it possible that I accessed a past version.  

By the way, I now see what you are talking about with the leaves, but I was going by the labels on the photos themselves.  Or at least I thought I was.

And while you are here Joe, you were apparently there nine days before and also at the tournament, so I assume you saw the marks to which I refer, didn't you?   Any idea what they were?  

It is possible your accessed a past version or something intermediate as I was working on the photo album constantly until about week or so ago, trying to decide which new photos to incorporate and try to get some commentary to match up with when each pic was taken.  I really like this album because it combines pics from multiple visits.

And I was at the tourney both days, including the practice round.  I did not see what you are referring to.  However, I was marshaling and was assigned to a handful of holes and did not see each and every green up close and personal.

I must add the following:  this event was probably the most fun I've ever had at a golf tourney.  The fact that the crowds are smaller and that you can really get up close to the action made it very enjoyable.  Contrast this to a couple of months earlier when I was at the 3rd round of the US Open at Bethpage, where I vowed I would not go to another US Open again unless I'm volunteering.  Just too many people and it was hard to see much golf.

P.S.  The following photo numbers, if my memory serves me well, were taken about 8-10 days before the Walker Cup (4, 5, 7-9, 12-15, 23-25, 27, 34, 42, 46-48, 59-61, 64, 77-79, 85, 90-93, 96, 99-101, 111, 112, 115, 117-120, 128, 135-137, 154-157, 165-167, 179, 180, 188, 189, 196, 209-212, 222-226.)

[Dan Herrmann]

This has nothing to do with the greens, but I had to mention it...  I was next to the first tee when the first singles match teed off on Saturday.  The view down the 1st fairway made me smile ear-to-ear - it was completely lined with fans of amateur golf, and the fans followed the competitors respectfully down the fairway.  It was amateur golf at its finest, and the scenes reminded me of the film "The Greatest Game".

I was speaking with a USGA official on the 1st fairway, and he was thrilled with the turnout, the course, the players, and the decorum of the fans.  It was a truly magical event.

[DMoriarty]

Dan,

No one said anything about any "defects."    I was just wondering why, on television, the greens apparently had lines of spots.  Other spectators have confirmed that the greens were spotted as if they had been punched in the not too distant past.   All agree they played perfectly.    

I thought the television resolution was very good considering it was apparently not HD.  I could even see this pattern on the green which apparently you could not even see in person.  

__________________________

With this all said....there is NOTHING WRONG AT ALL with what you are seeing in these pictures or with what you have seen on the greens the week of the tournament. There is nothing to speculate or argue over. Matt groomed his greens in preparation of a big tournament like he was supposed too.

And for anyone trying to figure out what the spots were on the green or what the lines were....who cares with all due respect. Matt doesnt care what what the greens look like aesthetically as long as they play great. And they did....

Ian,  As have said in just about every post, I have not questioned the playability of the greens.   I was just curious as to why the greens were spotted.  I got many conflicting answers (including your original answer) but it sounds like my original inclination was correct.    It is not a matter of arguing or speculation but rather of matter of curiosity.    

After all, the reason I am here is to learn about golf courses.  Why some people have such a hard time with this concept is beyond me.  

___________________________________

Joe, thanks for clarifying again.   I think the album is excellent.   I went back through the album and some of them are marked something like "taken days before the Walker Cup" with no number, so you may want to correct that.  I guess it is possible that I mistakenly looked at these, although that is not the way I recall it.  

Anyway, all the more proof why we should all be very clear about our sources, so others can vet them and correct them if they turn out to be incorrect or misleading.

[Dan Herrmann]

David,
I DVR'd the TV coverage, and I'd agree with you that the greens looked "spotty" on TV.  I think the cause was the poor TV production quality, because it didn't come close to capturing the scenes at the event.

The Golf Channel had it labeled as HD, but it was obviously a 16x9 SD picture that was poorly upconverted.

I'm hoping the USGA took some HD video (or film) of the event...

[DMoriarty]

Dan,  what I am talking about was NOT poor production quality, but rows of spots in a uniform pattern as if made by a machine.   No question. 

_______________

Joe,   one correction above.   Some of the photos say "taken just days before"  others "taken days before"  some have a number.

Also Joe, did you notice the spots when you were there to take photos 8-10 days before?

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,   one correction above.   Some of the photos say "taken just days before"  others "taken days before"  some have a number.

Also Joe, did you notice the spots when you were there to take photos 8-10 days before?

I will try to go through the entire album again and make my commentary more consistent and accurate.  It is sort of hard to explain, but I use two different computers to work with my photos, one is ancient and functions as the web server but isn't fast enough to do any decent post-processing of photos, while the other dual quad-core can mow just about anything down to size.  And it is the slower computer where I have older software (Galerie for the Mac, which is free BTW) to build the web pages.  Working with two computers and multiple pages of photos of Merion from different times has lead to some unevenness of the presentation at times. 

Regarding some 'spotting' of the greens 8-10 days before, I did not notice anything significant.  But I'll admit that I was moving very fast that late afternoon to get these prized "perched shots" with the sunlight being so nice but knowing no way I could get all the photos I wanted.  I was just trying to remember my previous angles and where the album needed some help.  I really think some of the photos of the 3rd hole from the tower behind the 5th green, as well as the tower behind the 3rd green, are really quite good.  But there are still some holes that are 'thin', as probably some of you have noticed.  Perhaps those we'll get some help in the coming months.    I know a few members at Merion now and they are some of the best, most generous, people I've ever known.

[Michael Blake]

I was a marshal on Sat & Sun, assigned to the 2nd and 9th greens.
I walked all over them before and after all the groups played through and they looked perfect.

[Ian Larson]

I just got off the phone with a buddy of mine in Philly and he said Merion will be aerifying their greens starting next week. It looks like they are going to do a double drill and fill, not a standard aerification. Matt is going the whole nine yards with those greens. The great thing about Matt is that he has the balls to not care about some dead grass. Im sure that some of the spots seen were dead grass. Some spots were segregated bentgrass, some were the old aerification holes showing up because Matt was pushing them to the limit like he always does, all the stressed grass around the aerification hoiles made the happier grass on top of the aerification holes much more pronounced. He did not aerify or verticut right before the tournament as expected.

With the bentgrass greens that get verticut, aerified and drilled and filled..I would still like to hear from the Mark Logan guys how Merion could possibly keep their bent greens pure bent grass if all of these cultural practices promote poa. Merion is just another case where the "Disturbance Theory" is just that, a theory. Something in the golf course world that hasnt been proven and hasnt bothered to prove itself because its a loosey goosey theory that has alot more tightening up to do before it becomes a fact. A fact like bentgrass becomes denser when verticutting its stolons, not thinner.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Quiet simple the answer is probably this.  With the camera angle high above, more than humans are used to seeing at their eye level, the new grass coming up from the last aerification in the aerified holes is darker and healthier than the old grass.  It can stay that way for months.  When standing on the green one may not notice this, but a TV camera seems to pick it up.
Should have nothing to do with the green's performance.

[DMoriarty]

Lynn

You are probably right, although it is strange some of the spectators noticed the spots and others did not. 

Another photo, captured from the "Sunday Singles" flash Album (photo 19/24) on the official website http://www.walkercup.org/photos/.  The first is the original capture, and in the second I've blown up to 175% size without improving the resolution.
 

[Bradley Anderson]

Aeration holes on greens are backfilled with sand. The air to water ratio in that column of sand is perfectly balanced, especially in the first two years. So the grass around the aeration holes is certainly going to be greener simply because the roots are growing in an ideal environment.

Now you can mask this condition by fertilizing heavily, so that everything is growing so fast that nothing else stands out, but why would you want to do that when you are trying to provide fast and firm conditions?

I guess the only other solution would be to stop aerating, but that's certainly not advisable for a club that actually wants to use their greens and enjoy them.

In my experience it doesn't matter when you aerify. I mean you can aerify in April and still see those dark green dots in September. I see those patterns on TV, and all it tells me is this guy has a really good cultural program for the health of his greens, and he is leaning them out for this event.

[DMoriarty]

Bradly ,
I am not suggesting a solution was needed nor did I mean to suggest that there had been a problem.  I was just curious as to understand what I saw.   Your explanations and the explanations of others have helped me understand that, I think.   

When it comes to maintenance practices it seems that there is almost always a viable explanation of what is going on, and it doesn't always mean that there has been a mistake or an error.  But it sure helps if the people who know are willing to discuss it and explain it.   

For example, you seem to be suggesting that the dots on the greens may themselves be an indication that the crew has done an excellent job with the greens.  That makes sense to me.  But you've got to realize that if the dots were noticable to me they were probably noticeable to others, and without some education or explanation of what is going on, many observers will very likely equate this with a problem with the greens.

While the announcers were effusive in their praise of the maintenance crew for removing the water, it would have been nice for them to really have explained the efforts that the crew had made to "lean them out" and to emphasize that "lean" greens are really the best greens, even though they are not necessarily as green and lush and of the same uniform shade as some might expect.

That is what is bizarre about this particular issue.   Shutting down the conversation creates the impression that the spots were a bad thing that ought to be hidden or not discussed, and that sound maintenance practices are something to be ashamed of and hide.