[John Mayhugh]

I think that you cannot communicate enough. In fact, I speak to my greens chairman almost daily, email pictures and have a twitter account for  out of town members to see what were doing.

Sounds like a great application for Twitter.  Is this something that you introduced down there?

[Anthony_Nysse]

John,
  I just introduced it to the membership about a week ago. the link is www.twitter.com/pinetreegrounds. I believe that it's a great was to communicate to that memberhsip that isnt around from May to October to keep them informed what practices are being done. I try to update daily.

[Mike_Young]

Anthony,
IMHO I think Pinetree might be the best golf course in Florida.....why don't people hear of it as they do the other "big names" down there.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Anthony,
IMHO I think Pinetree might be the best golf course in Florida.....why don't people hear of it as they do the other "big names" down there.

 Mike,
  I have only been at Pine Tree for a short time, BUT I think part of it is that the membership enjoys their privacy, but I think that the last 2 renovations have taken away the Dick Wilson bunkering (Some thing that I hope I'm there for when they restore) possibly turning some people off.  I dont belive the Pine Tree has a great ambassador. Beth Daniel and Meg Mallon carry the flag, but that may not get to the audience to keep PT in the spotlight more oftern. Honestly, other than a few changes to #10, Pine Tree is VERY close to how it was designed by Mr. Wilson, himself.  It's too bad the last renovation didnt restore the bunkers in the WIlson fashion and it took away one of the best features of the course. I think the other big names on the block are Seminole and Jupiter Hills...I have yet to see Indian Creek, but am looking forward to it. I think that Bear's Club get notoriety because it's Jack's course and who lives there, The Medalist gets fame because it's Greg's course and McCarther because of it condition and green speeds

[Bill_McBride]

Anthony,
IMHO I think Pinetree might be the best golf course in Florida.....why don't people hear of it as they do the other "big names" down there.

  Mike,
  I have only been at Pine Tree for a short time, BUT I think part of it is that the membership enjoys their privacy, but I think that the last 2 renovations have taken away the Dick Wilson bunkering (Some thing that I hope I'm there for when they restore) possibly turning some people off.  I dont belive the Pine Tree has a great ambassador. Beth Daniel and Meg Mallon carry the flag, but that may not get to the audience to keep PT in the spotlight more oftern. Honestly, other than a few changes to #10, Pine Tree is VERY close to how it was designed by Mr. Wilson, himself.  It's too bad the Bobby Weed decided to put his own style bunkers in and take away one of the best features of the course. I think the other big names on the block are Seminole and Jupiter Hills...I have yet to see Indian Creek, but am looking forward to it. I think that Bear's Club get notoriety because it's Jack's course and who lives there, The Medalist gets fame because it's Greg's course and McCarther because of it condition and green speeds

It's interesting you would say that, Tony.  On another thread I mentioned how grievous it was that Rees had turned the fine Wilson bunkering at Cog Hill into Reeses Pieces.  I think the changes to Wilson's design at Doral Blue have been an ongoing desecration.  Now you bring in the changes to Wilson's bunkers at Pine Tree.  This is a tragedy.  Wilson is really underappreciated.

I'll never forget my first round at Doral Blue.  The first hole was a 520 yard par 5.  I hit a decent drive and a pretty good lay up to 100 yards.  I stood out in the fairway and all I could see was the top of the flagstick and what looked like 2 acres of sand!  The bunkers overlapped and the effect was overpowering.  Great stuff.

[Mike_Young]

Anthony,
IMHO I think Pinetree might be the best golf course in Florida.....why don't people hear of it as they do the other "big names" down there.

  Mike,
  I have only been at Pine Tree for a short time, BUT I think part of it is that the membership enjoys their privacy, but I think that the last 2 renovations have taken away the Dick Wilson bunkering (Some thing that I hope I'm there for when they restore) possibly turning some people off.  I dont belive the Pine Tree has a great ambassador. Beth Daniel and Meg Mallon carry the flag, but that may not get to the audience to keep PT in the spotlight more oftern. Honestly, other than a few changes to #10, Pine Tree is VERY close to how it was designed by Mr. Wilson, himself.  It's too bad the Bobby Weed decided to put his own style bunkers in and take away one of the best features of the course. I think the other big names on the block are Seminole and Jupiter Hills...I have yet to see Indian Creek, but am looking forward to it. I think that Bear's Club get notoriety because it's Jack's course and who lives there, The Medalist gets fame because it's Greg's course and McCarther because of it condition and green speeds

Anthony,
Who and what has been done to Pinetree in recent years.....I think I may have told you before but my wifes father was supt at Indian Creek and she grew up there..he was also at Gulfstream and Everglades in your area....Indian Creek is good....I played the new JH and just could not get into the white sugar sand rough areas.....maybe that has changed since it reopened....be sure and look up Dick Gray down that way.....
Get er fixed up....

[Anthony_Nysse]

Mike,
  This is what I know-Ron Forse renovated the course in 1997 and did a decent job of capturing the Wilson style bunkering. Bobby Weed was called upon in 2005 to renovate the bunkers, tees, greens and regrass the fairways. Unfortunatly, the Wilson style bunkering was not restored. Unfortunately, that seems to be a theme with Wilson courses-Bay Hill, Doral, Cog Hill to name a few...I wonder why his work doesnt get more respect...is it because RTJ was designing courses that had similar features? I dont know....

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
  This is what I know-Ron Forse renovated the course in 1997 and did a decent job of capturing the Wilson style bunkering. Bobby Weed was called upon in 2005 to renovate the bunkers, tees, greens and regrass the fairways. Unfortunatly, the Wilson style bunkering was not restored. Unfortunately, that seems to be a theme with Wilson courses-Bay Hill, Doral, Cog Hill to name a few...I wonder why his work doesnt get more respect...is it because RTJ was designing courses that had similar features? I dont know....

Anthony,
you know the old saying that sometimes too much money at a club is worse than not enough when it comes to preserving the old.....My opinion is that much of the elimination of wilson is nothing more than a pure sales job to unknowing memberships or resorts or developers....I have always enjoyed good wilson vs RTJ and thta is not to say I don't like some RTJ.....but I think the tides were against Wilson as his courses came up for renovations or redos and his work was often eliminated or covered.....JMO

[RJ_Daley]

Tony, you are much younger than I had thought over the years reading your posts.  You are obviously a real dynamo and a human sponge in sucking up knowledge and experience as you go.  I imagine your being single and able to put in that kind of time (80-85 hours a week) is a benefit at this stage of your life.  Your enthusiasm to communicate intensely with your membership is also extraordinary.  Even your thoughtful and straight forward answers on this thread seem like they could be printed out and given to turf students at various schools.  I'm sure the next 10 years will bring some amazing opportunities and maybe unforseen surprises (good ones) to you. 

Just do guard against mental and physical fatigue.  With a lifestyle like you describe, the rush of being on top of your profession can obscure other needs, that are important to know when they are a-callin.  I think the best superintendents tend to manage most effectively from the top green side of the turf.   

[George Pazin]

A very wise post from Dick, everyone, but especially our younger posters, would do well to read it closely.

When I hear Pine Tree I always think of Hogan - does the club do much to reinforce this? Any special rooms, plaques, that sort of thing?

If the club was okay with it, it would be terrific if you could do a My Home Course piece on PT. I would certainly understand if you didn't want to, however.

[Anthony_Nysse]

George,
  There is a plaque behind #1 tee where Mr. Hogan stated "Pine Tree is the greatest flat course in America." To my understanding, Mr. Same Snead was on the grounds more often and even granted a honorary membership. There are several photos and clubs thoughout the clubhouse with his signature on it.
  I would enojy doing a "My Home Course" on PT and done in the right taste, I'm sure the membership wouldnt have any issues.
 
Tony Nysse
Pine Tree GC
Boynton Beach, FL

[George Pazin]

 I would enojy doing a "My Home Course" on PT and done in the right taste, I'm sure the membership wouldnt have any issues.

That would be terrific, can't wait to read it.

What has been your biggest surprise from the theoretical world at MSU to the real world at several top golf clubs? Are there any changes you would recommend to the folks back at MSU to better prepare one for the real world of green keeping?

[JC Jones]

Tony,

As a member of the 2001 class at Michigan State, your early successes do not surprise me, they just prove how great we are!!

As a new resident to south Florida (west side), I have noticed that unlike a courses just as far north as Orlando, the courses dont require much to stay green.  To what do you credit this and do you have any saturation issues with the heavy, and daily, storms?

Also, since I am in Naples and you are in Boynton, do you think there is a bar in the middle of the swamp that we could meet up at to watch a State game this winter?

[Lyne Morrison]

Tony – well done with your success to date - hold on to that passion.


- Would you share with us your opinion of the XGD system?

- Push-up greens v usga?

- Bunker liners – do you feel there is a time and a place to use liners - and a time and a place not to - where / when?

- The most effective way ahead to achieve improved course sustainability?


Appreciate your thoughts.

Cheers - Lyne

[Lyne Morrison]

also Tony...

Any thoughts / opinions / experiences to share with regards forward tees?

Odd locations, grateful short hitters, unhappy members, greens committee issues, nuisance maintenance etc?

Thanks - L    : )

[Anthony_Nysse]

Lyne,
  - Would you share with us your opinion of the XGD system?
I, personally, do not have any experience with the XGD system, BUT the superintendents that have installed it, swear by it. The courses that have installed it are mostly OLD courses with push up greens that do not want to risk changing the contours OR losing the existing grass. (Oakmont) From what I have seen, it appears to be a great way for the old, push up greens to compete with the USGA greens, while keeping the integrity of the original greens contours.

- Push-up greens v usga?
SO many people assume that USGA greens =perfect green surfaces all the time. TO ME, it only gives the superintendent an edge to begin with. It still needs to have proper cultivation methods done and after 10+ years of improper care, a USGA is no different than a push up. Friars Head’s greens are not USGA spec greens and I think that they turned out just fine! 

- Bunker liners – do you feel there is a time and a place to use liners - and a time and a place not to - where / when?
We used liners last summer when I was at Colonial. The shape of the bunkers, their slopes and the sand used; there was no way that those bunkers could be built without a liner. IN fact, the old bunkers at C3 would wash out and fill up with water after .4” rain. The new ones can take what ever you can throw at them. Friar’s bunkers were built without liners. IN fact, I’d be interested to see courses if any courses with the natural style bunkering HAVE liners in them, because those bunkers have a tendency to “move” with time.

- The most effective way ahead to achieve improved course sustainability?
Cut out the crap-The valet parking, the armor alled seats and wheels on the carts, the fans and misters on carts, the starters, the club washer at the driving range, the manicuring fairway bunkers every or every other day-twice a week is plenty. Get rid of the merchandise manager and have the pros and assistants make the purchasing and lastly, ENCOURAGE a MUCH lower greens fee for walking, up to $50 off. At least people are out there playing.

[George Pazin]

...and lastly, ENCOURAGE a MUCH lower greens fee for walking, up to $50 off. At least people are out there playing.

Pretty interesting, this is somewhat contradictory to all of the folks who claim cart revenue is crucial to profitability.

I love it when people think contrary to the accepted standards.

I'd think Rich Goodale would agree with that last statement, but he and I are required by this site's bylaws to disagree almost all the time, so that leaves us in a tough place...

 

[Lou_Duran]

George,

I will disagree with you (and Dick Daley).  My advice to young Tony is to keep his nose to the grindstone while still managing the other important aspects of his life.  I've yet to meet a really outstanding individual in any field of endeavor who only works the average work week.  The best performers I've known do not look at long hours as hardship, but as the opportunity to achieve excellence and build their careers/business.  Love of work is a blessing.  Family is hugely important, but as you will learn soon enough to your dismay, your son will welcome your time less and less in favor of spending his with his friends.   Anyways, the quality of the time spent with others is much more important than the amount.

Tony,

What do you mean when you say that you verticut in both directions during the summer weekly?  Once a week, north or east, then south or west?  I was under the impression that ultradwarfs required more frequent verticutting, say 2 or 3 times per week during the growing seasons.

Also, MSU put out a study years ago that greens should be rolled 4 to 5 times per week without causing harm or compaction.  Does this apply only to bent, or to ultradwarfs as well?

You said you haven't had much experience with Champion bermuda, but it has been my experience from playing on this grass is that it is much superior to TiffEagle in terms of minimizing grain.  The only ultradwarf greens I've played that resembled bent in terms of smoothness and the putt holding the line were at Whispering Pines during a drought.  The Champion greens were extremely firm and fast, and absolutely perfect.  Have you been satisfied with Eagle in regards to grain and thatch?  Other than verticutting, is there anything that can be done to minimize the grain that I've see as a major problem with Eagle?

[Lou_Duran]

...and lastly, ENCOURAGE a MUCH lower greens fee for walking, up to $50 off. At least people are out there playing.

Pretty interesting, this is somewhat contradictory to all of the folks who claim cart revenue is crucial to profitability.

I love it when people think contrary to the accepted standards.

I'd think Rich Goodale would agree with that last statement, but he and I are required by this site's bylaws to disagree almost all the time, so that leaves us in a tough place...

 

I am assuming that Tony's position is from the standpoint of a maintenance professional with budget responsibilities.  If he was the general manager of a profit center, I suspect that his views might be different.  He did indicate little interest in being a GM.  One can be more of an idealist not having to manage a bottom line or make a payroll.  

[Anthony_Nysse]

What do you mean when you say that you verticut in both directions during the summer weekly?  Once a week, north or east, then south or west?  I was under the impression that ultradwarfs required more frequent verticutting, say 2 or 3 times per week during the growing seasons.
Lou-Picture the hands on a clock. When we verticut here, (Or when I was at Long Cove) we verticut in a direction of 10 to4, then 4 to 10, 2 to 8, then 8 to 2. We just call it down and back twice on the same pass. Were actually verticutting the green 4 times. This really makes for a channel for the sand to get into and removes a lot of material.  Now, we also groom 1-2 times a week and also brush 1-2 times as well, but only when the grass is growing enough to handle the stress.

Also, MSU put out a study years ago that greens should be rolled 4 to 5 times per week without causing harm or compaction.  Does this apply only to bent, or to ultradwarfs as well?
We roll 5-6 times a week, BUT were are allowed to aerifiy and needle tines a lot as well, so I’m not worried about compaction. New studies show that rolling 5 times a week and mowing 3-4 are producing similar speeds and healthier turfgrass.

You said you haven't had much experience with Champion bermuda, but it has been my experience from playing on this grass is that it is much superior to TiffEagle in terms of minimizing grain.  The only ultradwarf greens I've played that resembled bent in terms of smoothness and the putt holding the line were at Whispering Pines during a drought.  The Champion greens were extremely firm and fast, and absolutely perfect.  Have you been satisfied with Eagle in regards to grain and thatch?  Other than verticutting, is there anything that can be done to minimize the grain that I've see as a major problem with Eagle?

GRADEN! This machine is a deep verticutter (over 1” deep) that removes A LOT of organic material and inserts dry sand directly into the channel. We used it here for the first time last month and I hope to use it twice last summer. We were able to incorporate another 65 tons of sand into our profile ONTOP of the 125 tops from the 5/8 tine aerification done 3 days before. Our greens have never been firmer.
  To me, there is a reason that Eagle is more widely used….it was funded and promoted by the USGA AND was the first real ultradwarf to come out on the market. Eagle is the most difficult of the ultadwarfts to maintain. In fact, because of it’s thatch making abilities and several other reason, Seminole actually has installed champion this summer-I’m excited to get over there and see it as I’m sure it was done well

[George Pazin]

George,

I will disagree with you (and Dick Daley).  My advice to young Tony is to keep his nose to the grindstone while still managing the other important aspects of his life.  I've yet to meet a really outstanding individual in any field of endeavor who only works the average work week.  The best performers I've known do not look at long hours as hardship, but as the opportunity to achieve excellence and build their careers/business.  Love of work is a blessing.  Family is hugely important, but as you will learn soon enough to your dismay, your son will welcome your time less and less in favor of spending his with his friends.   Anyways, the quality of the time spent with others is much more important than the amount.

A very thought provoking post indeed. I believe there is a happy medium, that you can have your family as priority #1 while still working hard toward your goal(s). It's up to every individual to find that medium and figure out how to make it work.

I also believe strongly in quality AND quantity. It's great to discuss quality, but quantity certainly has an effect all of its own.

At any rate, I would encourage Tony to take advantage of his independent time to build a strong foundation, and it sounds as if he is already doing so.

[Jason Topp]

Even though I am not asking any questions, I just wanted to chime in and indicate I really enjoy these threads.

[George Pazin]

Even though I am not asking any questions, I just wanted to chime in and indicate I really enjoy these threads.

Thanks, Jason, don't be surprised when I come knocking on your door shortly...

[Bill_McBride]

Tony,

What do you mean when you say that you verticut in both directions during the summer weekly?  Once a week, north or east, then south or west?  I was under the impression that ultradwarfs required more frequent verticutting, say 2 or 3 times per week during the growing seasons.
Lou-Picture the hands on a clock. When we verticut here, (Or when I was at Long Cove) we verticut in a direction of 10 to4, then 4 to 10, 2 to 8, then 8 to 2. We just call it down and back twice on the same pass. Were actually verticutting the green 4 times. This really makes for a channel for the sand to get into and removes a lot of material.  Now, we also groom 1-2 times a week and also brush 1-2 times as well, but only when the grass is growing enough to handle the stress.

Also, MSU put out a study years ago that greens should be rolled 4 to 5 times per week without causing harm or compaction.  Does this apply only to bent, or to ultradwarfs as well?
We roll 5-6 times a week, BUT were are allowed to aerifiy and needle tines a lot as well, so I’m not worried about compaction. New studies show that rolling 5 times a week and mowing 3-4 are producing similar speeds and healthier turfgrass.

You said you haven't had much experience with Champion bermuda, but it has been my experience from playing on this grass is that it is much superior to TiffEagle in terms of minimizing grain.  The only ultradwarf greens I've played that resembled bent in terms of smoothness and the putt holding the line were at Whispering Pines during a drought.  The Champion greens were extremely firm and fast, and absolutely perfect.  Have you been satisfied with Eagle in regards to grain and thatch?  Other than verticutting, is there anything that can be done to minimize the grain that I've see as a major problem with Eagle?

GRADEN! This machine is a deep verticutter (over 1” deep) that removes A LOT of organic material and inserts dry sand directly into the channel. We used it here for the first time last month and I hope to use it twice last summer. We were able to incorporate another 65 tons of sand into our profile ONTOP of the 125 tops from the 5/8 tine aerification done 3 days before. Our greens have never been firmer.
  To me, there is a reason that Eagle is more widely used….it was funded and promoted by the USGA AND was the first real ultradwarf to come out on the market. Eagle is the most difficult of the ultadwarfts to maintain. In fact, because of it’s thatch making abilities and several other reason, Seminole actually has installed champion this summer-I’m excited to get over there and see it as I’m sure it was done well

"Eagle is the most difficult of the ultadwarfts to maintain."

That's why we chose the conservative approach of using old reliable TifDwarf, un-overseeded, for our greens, and 419 for our fairways and approach areas.

I have had three supers, from Scottsdale to South Florida, tell me that Champion is very difficult to maintain after the first couple of years, heavy thatching, highly maintenance intensive.   I look forward to hearing how it goes at Seminole.  I suppose they have the budget to do the amount of work that's required.

Thanks for all your time and enthusiasm on this thread, Tony.  George has done a great service with this concept, and the industry guys are really coming through with a lot of candid commentary and responses.

[Lou_Duran]

Bill McBride,

I don't mean to hijack Tony's thread, but I think that Champion might be getting a bad rap, though varying soil and climate conditions as much as budget may have something to do with it.  Great Southwest Golf Club between Dallas and Fort Worth converted its Brauer designed bent (SR1020) greens to Champion some 8+ years ago and they are among the best bermuda surfaces in this part of the country.  It is a low-budget operation, probably around $500,000 annually, and other than two deep tyne and two smaller aerations each year plus some light sanding, they don't do much more to them.  They don't seem to verticut frequently, and to the best of my knowledge, they don't roll, brush, or groom them with any regularity.  Not surprisingly, the members are generally happy with the greens, but complain about how often they're punched and top-dressed.

The biggest complaints I've heard about Champion in this part of the country is that they can get pretty firm and fast, that they are hard to overseed without really tearing up the dense canopy (to get the seed to the soil), and that water tends to run-off a bit fast requiring heavier irrigation for the high spots creating soft conditions elsewhere, particularly the approaches (most greens drain to the front around here).  I've also heard some concern that Champion may not do well in cold conditions, so some transition areas may do better with a different hybrid.

Concerning Tiffdwarf, the greens at a local muni were rebuilt using this strain.  Lower maintenance was the main reason for choosing it.  Now that I've played the ultradwarfs including Miniverde for a number of years, there really is no comparison.   Unfortunately for this course (and the superintendent who chose Tiffdwarf), the city's other more upscale course converted to Tiffeagle, and the muni players as well as a fairly prominent councilman who play both courses are demanding that they gas the Tiffdwarf and convert to Eagle.  The architect who redid the course agreed with the initial choice of Tiffdwarf, but acknowledges that even this older, cheaper grass requires considerable maintenance.  The bottom line is that you get what you pay for.  If the golfers demand putting conditions approaching bent, the ultradwarfs is the way to go.  From what I am told, we are talking about more ongoing expense, but as the Great Southwest experience suggests, it may not be a huge amount more.   

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