Letter, primary sources from White Bear historian strongly suggest Ross design!

[Rich Goodale]

Rich
You're right. It does not mention if he was awarded a degree.

Ross arived back in the US on September 13, not the 3rd. Summer is summer, especially in Minnesota, either he visited in the summer of '10 or he didn't. And based on his documted trip abroad it appears very unlikely he visited that summer. Add to that the fact this was a summer colony (in Minnesota), its unlikely there was anyone around to visit outside the prime summer months. By the way his interview in the Boston Globe is from October.

IMO the 1910 visit is a red herring. The club's pamphlet from 1917-18 said Watson designed the course and the commodore of the club in 1925 confirms the pamphlet.

Tom

The last time I checked, summer ends September 22nd.  Maybe it's different in the midwest.

You are choosing two pieces of information and ignoring all others.  This is not scholarship, it is argument.

Rich

BTW, Yacht Club Commodores are notorious dipsomaniacs.

rfg

[Chris_Blakely]

Rich
You're right. It does not mention if he was awarded a degree.

Ross arived back in the US on September 13, not the 3rd. Summer is summer, especially in Minnesota, either he visited in the summer of '10 or he didn't. And based on his documted trip abroad it appears very unlikely he visited that summer. Add to that the fact this was a summer colony (in Minnesota), its unlikely there was anyone around to visit outside the prime summer months. By the way his interview in the Boston Globe is from October.

IMO the 1910 visit is a red herring. The club's pamphlet from 1917-18 said Watson designed the course and the commodore of the club in 1925 confirms the pamphlet.

Tom

The last time I checked, summer ends September 22nd.  Maybe it's different in the midwest.

You are choosing two pieces of information and ignoring all others.  This is not scholarship, it is argument.

Rich

BTW, Yacht Club Commodores are notorious dipsomaniacs.

rfg

Rich,

Come on, summer officially ends then.  However, in upper Michigan / U.P. it ends from a tourist standpoint / heavy traffic stand point at Labor Day.  I would suspect that is what Tom is getting at.  Looking at a map, White Bear Lake, MN is about on the same latitude line as Vanderbilt / Gaylord, MI.  During this time of year (typically), it is much cooler and the days are shorter.  When I was just up in the Gaylord area this past weekend, it was getting dark around 7:45 pm when we finished on the course we were playing.

Chris

[DMoriarty]

It would help if we knew a bit more about the source of the information contained in the passage from the 1961 history.  It was thought by some to have been an actual diary entry, but that does not appear to have been the case.    Where did this information come from?

Dr. Mammel mentioned that a "contemporaneous record" from a now deceased member stated that Ross was at the club in 1910.   What is this contemporaneous record?      Did I miss where this contemporaneous record has been identified or described?  Because unless I am missing something, the passage in the 1961 history is not a quote or transcription from a writing created in 1910. 

___________________________________________

Jim Kennedy,

Your understanding of what is going on here is exactly correct and I for one appreciate you speaking up.   Tom Paul has the nerve to say that he has come in peace and that he "hasn't bashed or been uncivil" on this thread but his posts tell a different story.  He has repeatedly tried to inject past battles into this discussion, pulling Merion, Myopia, and even Pine Valley into this conversation, he has blatantly misrepresented those past discussions, he has gone on and on about how Tom and I are up some sort of sophistic game with our "fallacious, tricky and clever argumentative tactics," and he has even begged Mr. Mammel not to participate any further.  

And why?   Because Tom MacWood is trying to help Dr. Mammel figure out what really happened at his club?   I mean, really, what has Tom MacWood done here except bring extremely relevant and compelling facts to light?  Dr. Mammel is interested in figuring out what really happened at his club, so Dr. Mammel must be quite happy to be receiving this information.    

As for TEPaul, if he is suddenly so interested in Willie Watson and his family then I think Tom Paul ought do some research himself.  Maybe he and Wayne can follow up the Flynn Treatise with one on Watson, then they can do one on Campbell to complete their Willie Trilogy.

In the meantime, Tom MacWood ought to ignore TEPaul's research requests.   TomM is certainly too valuable to be relegated to the role of TomPaul's lowly research assistant.  

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
William Watson managed his father's flax operation in Scotland. He was a not professional golfer. He would have been considered a gentleman, after all his father was a member of the R&A. They did not get into the golf business until coming to the States.

Regarding his education the first excerpt comes from a promotional pamphlet from the Santa Fe RR in 1900, and the second is from Golf magazine 12/1901.

[Rich Goodale]

Rich
You're right. It does not mention if he was awarded a degree.

Ross arived back in the US on September 13, not the 3rd. Summer is summer, especially in Minnesota, either he visited in the summer of '10 or he didn't. And based on his documted trip abroad it appears very unlikely he visited that summer. Add to that the fact this was a summer colony (in Minnesota), its unlikely there was anyone around to visit outside the prime summer months. By the way his interview in the Boston Globe is from October.

IMO the 1910 visit is a red herring. The club's pamphlet from 1917-18 said Watson designed the course and the commodore of the club in 1925 confirms the pamphlet.

Tom

The last time I checked, summer ends September 22nd.  Maybe it's different in the midwest.

You are choosing two pieces of information and ignoring all others.  This is not scholarship, it is argument.

Rich

BTW, Yacht Club Commodores are notorious dipsomaniacs.

rfg

Rich,

Come on, summer officially ends then.  However, in upper Michigan / U.P. it ends from a tourist standpoint / heavy traffic stand point at Labor Day.  I would suspect that is what Tom is getting at.  Looking at a map, White Bear Lake, MN is about on the same latitude line as Vanderbilt / Gaylord, MI.  During this time of year (typically), it is much cooler and the days are shorter.  When I was just up in the Gaylord area this past weekend, it was getting dark around 7:45 pm when we finished on the course we were playing.

Chris

Thanks, Chris.

I just googled Minnesota temperatures for September 1910, and it was (and still is) one of the hottest September's on record, with temperatures well into the 80's.  I can just imagine DJ Ross sipping a cool lemonade on the Ordway's porch and designing MBYC in his head.....

Rich

[Rich Goodale]

TEP
William Watson managed his father's flax operation in Scotland. He was a not professional golfer. He would have been considered a gentleman, after all his father was a member of the R&A. They did not get into the golf business until coming to the States.

Regarding his education the first excerpt comes from a promotional pamphlet from the Santa Fe RR in 1900, and the second is from Golf magazine 12/1901.

Tom

I'll take the word of the University of St. Andrews (that Wille W. attended, but did not graduate) over a promotional pamphlet or a magazine article 20+ years after the fact.  Why does it make any difference, anyway?  Surely Willie wasn't padding his resume, or was he?

[Jay Flemma]

Dr. Mammel responds:

"In spite of the shots across various bows, I would like to thank the participants for the new information about Watson, Ross, Hagen and those very exciting times.  It seems like Harry Legg set a record of 69 in July 1917, only to have Jock Hutchinson break it with 67, in July 1918! What about the great Walter?! The post from Mr Moriarty regarding the Hagen visit in July 1918 is really helpful, and I'll see what I can dig out. It would be useful if I could communicate directly with Tom MacWood and Mr Moriarty, who obviously have access to some unusual source material. 


I know that many have a deep vested interest in identifying their club as a Ross, McKenzie, Tillinghast, or Other Famous Dead Architect's creation.  While we at WBYC are happy to be recognized as a product of Donald Ross's incredible imagination, I think I can safely say we are really interested in nailing down the facts as best as we can.  The golf course is no less exciting in any case. So I welcome Tom's comments and help! I'm learning a lot here- though I have spent some time at the Minnesota Historical Society peering at microfiche, this is an avocation.  When someone has information I haven't seen, it's exciting. Where do these documents on Ross et al come from? Must be a treasure trove. 

I'm still working on more information regarding the Ross visit in 1910 from the 1961 history.  Books have been written about the unreliability of eyewitness accounts- maybe we have an error in dating here!  I still argue that the story of Ross's visit is too detailed to have been created from whole cloth.  After all, in the 1950's, when Dr. Drake was working on this original history, no one in the general membership of most clubs (including ours), with the exception of a tiny cadre, knew or cared who designed any golf course! In fact, that early history was really focused on the sailing record at the YACHT Club, and the golf information was almost an afterthought! So while the dates may be wrong, more research may squeeze the truth from the murky historical record. Short version of all this: I concur that William Watson did a design for the golf course.  I still hold that Donald Ross came to White Bear Lake and "gave freely of his advice."


As I haven't been able to join this site, I am unable to access any profile information.  should anyone wish to communicate with me directly, my email is mamme001@umn.edu.  Let the digging continue!"

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:


Thanks very much for the two pieces in your post #78. Particularly the 1900 promotional one from the Sante Fe RR goes directly to the heart of what I was getting at with my previous questions to you about Willie Watson attending St Andrews University as well as his father being a member of the R&A.

So, do you think it is accurate to say that Willie Watson became a professional golfer when he emigrated to the USA (since you mentioned he was not a professional in Scotland) and not before?

I realize it is obviously a difficult question for you or anyone to answer but do you suppose Willie Watson was perhaps the only one or one of a very very few early immigrant Scot/English professionals in America to have had a university education (even if he apparently did not graduate from St Andrews University)?

I also consider that the so-called Sante Fe RR promotional piece you just posted used a particularly interesting word in the way they described WW. Can you guess what it is?

PS:
If you or anyone else feels this line of discussion is off the topic of this particular thread would you be willing to take it to a separate thread?

[David Stamm]

TEP
William Watson managed his father's flax operation in Scotland. He was a not professional golfer. He would have been considered a gentleman, after all his father was a member of the R&A. They did not get into the golf business until coming to the States.

Regarding his education the first excerpt comes from a promotional pamphlet from the Santa Fe RR in 1900, and the second is from Golf magazine 12/1901.

Is it possible that the article that shows that Watson to be a graduate of St Andrews is metaphorical and not literal? Like when Thomas, Wilson, Crump and Flynn are referred to as Phildaelphia School of Design graduates?

[Jim_Kennedy]

TE,
They did call him a gentleman even though he was a professional. That seems a bit out of the ordinary for the period.

I liked the descriptive, 'artificial bunker'. So honest, and the author recognized that not much is neeed in the fairway if you have good terrain.     

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
William Watson managed his father's flax operation in Scotland. He was a not professional golfer. He would have been considered a gentleman, after all his father was a member of the R&A. They did not get into the golf business until coming to the States.

Regarding his education the first excerpt comes from a promotional pamphlet from the Santa Fe RR in 1900, and the second is from Golf magazine 12/1901.

Is it possible that the article that shows that Watson to be a graduate of St Andrews is metaphorical and not literal? Like when Thomas, Wilson, Crump and Flynn are referred to as Phildaelphia School of Design graduates?

David
I don't think it is all that important if he graduated or not. Its clear he was a student at St. Andrews University and his background was unlike any other Scottish import of that time.

[TEPaul]

"TE,
They did call him a gentleman even though he was a professional. That seems a bit out of the ordinary for the period."


Jim Kennedy:


That is precisely my point (or let's say my interest here). There seems to be a pretty obvious reason why they said that in that 1900 Sante Fe RR promotional piece, wouldn't you agree?



"David
I don't think it is all that important if he graduated or not. Its clear he was a student at St. Andrews University and his background was unlike any other Scottish import of that time."


Tom MacWood:

That too is precisely my point. If his background was like any of the other early multi-tasking immigrant Scot/English professionals in America can you or anyone else tell us who they were? I doubt there was a single one from that early era who attended what they refer to over there as "university" and the august St. Andrews Universtiy, at that. My Goodness gracious, even the elitist curmudgeonly C.B. or Herbie Leeds may've deigned to invite WW to his house or clubhouse socially!       

[Jay Flemma]

Maybe Tom M is right and this should be a thread of its own...we are getting a little far afield...

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I'm not interested in guessing what word you're referring to.

The evidence is strong Watson became a professional only after he came to the States. He listed his occupation as manager of his father's Flax company in 1881 and 1891. There is no record of him being a professional in the UK, this according to Alan Jackson's remarkable book "The British Professional Golfers 1887-1930 - A register." There were two W. Watsons, but neither man matches the profile. And I've discovered that was the case with his brother as well. See the article on JM Watson at Waverly (designed by the under appreciated HH Barker by the way).

[Tom MacWood]

Dr. Mammel responds:

"In spite of the shots across various bows, I would like to thank the participants for the new information about Watson, Ross, Hagen and those very exciting times.  It seems like Harry Legg set a record of 69 in July 1917, only to have Jock Hutchinson break it with 67, in July 1918! What about the great Walter?! The post from Mr Moriarty regarding the Hagen visit in July 1918 is really helpful, and I'll see what I can dig out. It would be useful if I could communicate directly with Tom MacWood and Mr Moriarty, who obviously have access to some unusual source material. 


I know that many have a deep vested interest in identifying their club as a Ross, McKenzie, Tillinghast, or Other Famous Dead Architect's creation.  While we at WBYC are happy to be recognized as a product of Donald Ross's incredible imagination, I think I can safely say we are really interested in nailing down the facts as best as we can.  The golf course is no less exciting in any case. So I welcome Tom's comments and help! I'm learning a lot here- though I have spent some time at the Minnesota Historical Society peering at microfiche, this is an avocation.  When someone has information I haven't seen, it's exciting. Where do these documents on Ross et al come from? Must be a treasure trove. 

I'm still working on more information regarding the Ross visit in 1910 from the 1961 history.  Books have been written about the unreliability of eyewitness accounts- maybe we have an error in dating here!  I still argue that the story of Ross's visit is too detailed to have been created from whole cloth.  After all, in the 1950's, when Dr. Drake was working on this original history, no one in the general membership of most clubs (including ours), with the exception of a tiny cadre, knew or cared who designed any golf course! In fact, that early history was really focused on the sailing record at the YACHT Club, and the golf information was almost an afterthought! So while the dates may be wrong, more research may squeeze the truth from the murky historical record. Short version of all this: I concur that William Watson did a design for the golf course.  I still hold that Donald Ross came to White Bear Lake and "gave freely of his advice."


As I haven't been able to join this site, I am unable to access any profile information.  should anyone wish to communicate with me directly, my email is mamme001@umn.edu.  Let the digging continue!"

Mark
I just sent you an email. I'm with you, let the chips fall where they may, the quality of the design will not change based upon who is identified as the designer - and Watson and Ross both have pretty strong resumes. The problem is people, especially people with some interest in golf architecture, become emotionally attached to these legends, especially with they involve an icon like Ross. But in my experience the truth is always more interesting than our perception of the truth (based on some of these often repeated legends or stories).

[Jay Flemma]

That's IF you are right about the truth!  You may not be in this case, Tom.  sometimes I think you HOPE too much that a lesser known name was the designer. 

I still think that Dr. Mammel's time line is more convincing to me.

Watson did 9 holes in 1910, but those were lost or redesigned heavily by

1912 First nine by Ross

1915 second nine by Ross.

Tom M-> who do you think did Minikahda and Interlachen?

[Tom MacWood]

That's IF you are right about the truth!  You may not be in this case, Tom.  sometimes I think you HOPE too much that a lesser known name was the designer. 

I still think that Dr. Mammel's time line is more convincing to me.

What timeline? What precisely is more convincing?

Watson did 9 holes in 1910, but those were lost or redesigned heavily by

1912 First nine by Ross

1915 second nine by Ross.

What facts do you base this upon or is this just a gut feeling?

Tom M-> who do you think did Minikahda and Interlachen?

Minikahda's history is more complicated than any of the others in the area. Watson designed the original nine in 1899, Ross redesigned the 18-hole course in 1916 or 1917, and what happened in between is still to be determined. Interlachen was designed by Watson in 1910-11, and remodeled by Ross around 1919 or 1920. Ross listed both courses in his pamphlet.

[Jay Flemma]

cool...OK at least we agree on Minikahda and Interlachen.

[Sean Leary]

seems interesting that both of these courses had original by Watson with a remodel by Ross. Any way that WBYC just got lumped in later because of a similar lineage, especially since it looks like Ross was involved at some level?

[David Stamm]

Dr. Mammel et al, it's important to know Watson's position in his era as an architect. He was referred to numerous times in articles as one of the best architects in the business. In fact, he was referred to as THE best here in California in some instances, before MacKenzie, Thomas, Behr, Bell and others started their run. Much of the work that Bell had done and had been known for was in fact redo's of some of Watson's courses, such as Hacienda and San Diego CC. He did Hillcrest in Los Angeles and of course the Lake course at Olympic. But his crown jewel was the one that was lost forever due to coastal errosion, the Ocean course at Olympic, which Daniel Wexler covered very well in his Missing Links book. He did the front nine at Lake Arrowhead CC, of which two holes are featured in Thomas' book, and they're somewhat close to the same as he designed them. He also did Orinda, and the Redan there was featured in Hunters' book as well. Dr. Mammel, if you don't have these books, I urge you to do so. Whether the course today at WBYC is due more to Watson or Ross, the fact that Watson was there in the beginning only adds to the history and if you haven't seen these books and the Watson references in them, I'm sure it would both surprise and please the membership that they have had 2 great architects perform work for their club. Ross was the bigger name, but in his day, Watson was no slouch.

[Jay Flemma]

Dr. Mammel et al, it's important to know Watson's position in his era as an architect. He was referred to numerous times in articles as one of the best architects in the business. In fact, he was referred to as THE best here in California in some instances, before MacKenzie, Thomas, Behr, Bell and others started their run. Much of the work that Bell had done and had been known for was in fact redo's of some of Watson's courses, such as Hacienda and San Diego CC. He did Hillcrest in Los Angeles and of course the Lake course at Olympic. But his crown jewel was the one that was lost forever due to coastal errosion, the Ocean course at Olympic, which Daniel Wexler covered very well in his Missing Links book. He did the front nine at Lake Arrowhead CC, of which two holes are featured in Thomas' book, and they're somewhat close to the same as he designed them. He also did Orinda, and the Redan there was featured in Hunters' book as well. Dr. Mammel, if you don't have these books, I urge you to do so. Whether the course today at WBYC is due more to Watson or Ross, the fact that Watson was there in the beginning only adds to the history and if you haven't seen these books and the Watson references in them, I'm sure it would both surprise and please the membership that they have had 2 great architects perform work for their club. Ross was the bigger name, but in his day, Watson was no slouch.

David, that's a lucid, even-handed, respectful, and intelligent assessment.  I will take that under advisement.  Thanks for the tip.  I know Dr. Mammel probly knows that already.  I'm sure he'll chime in soon...maybe even tomorrow.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
I'm not interested in guessing what word you're referring to."


Tom MacWood:

Then don't guess; no problem. I'm referring to the word gentleman in that 1900 Sante Fe RR article you posted that you claim is some so-called "promotional" piece. Do you think the mention and use of that term (word) to describe Willie Watson was coincidental and used as just some vaguely amorphous term that we may tend to use today or do you think it implied and intended to imply some deeper and more complex social and cultural implication and meaning that was far more prevalent during that time, and very much including in the world of golf back then?

Is it merely coincidental that Richard Sayers in his speech to MCC on its 50th anniversary in the early teens seemed to focus on that word and term almost as the theme, explanation or even definition of the ethos of the club itself that he believed was fundamentally necessary to preserve? However, with Sayers' speech the word and term seemed to be practically synonymous with amateurism and the avoidance of any hint of professionalism or commercialism in the ethos of the club (both terms he also used in his speech). The supplementary and seemingly synonymous term to him and in that particular time and place to the words gentleman and amateur, in sport, appears to be "sportsman."

I'm particularly interested because I just wrote an article in the Walker Cup program entitled "Merion's Hugh I. Wilson and the Era of the Amateur/Sportsman Architect" and this kind of thing is part of the theme of the article and the ethos of various places and people of that early time.

It seems to me the use of the word and term in that 1900 Santa Fe RR promotional article in referring to Willie Watson (probably because his father appears to have been a prominent business man (your description of him, by the way) belonged to the R&A and Willie attended St. Andrews University wholly unlike any other of those early Scot/English immigrant golf teachers, professionals, greenkeepers, clubmakers, part time architects) despite the fact that he was a professional, was some attempt to meld those two social and cultural worlds together which at that time they largely were not!

I feel the use of that term for Watson in that Santa Fe RR piece is an example and affirmation of the theme of that Walker Cup article describing that time and the so-called "amateur/sportsman" architect (as distinct from the professional) of that early time; Should I remind you that more than once when I have used that term on here you have referred to it as 'my schtick?'   I don't think so; I think it was very real back then and a whole lot more prevalent than some to perhaps most today may realize or even wish to admit. My point is that at least in that interesting era of the "amateur/sportsman" architect, a few of which produced such notable courses over time, it was very real and likely was part of the reason they chose to go about their projects the way some of them did!

The other fascinating thing to me is not just that it existed as it did and when it did but it also seems to have come to a fairly abrupt end at a particular time for reasons that are perhaps even more interesting and important in the evolution of American golf and architecture.

[DMoriarty]

Dr. Mammel,

I won't be able to email you the articles I mentioned until tomorrow.    Tom MacWood is the real expert, though, and I am sure his involvement will aid you greatly in getting to the bottom of what really happened.  He is a tremendous asset for all of us.   As I have said above, I suspect we will end up with what was written in the pamphlet and in the 1925 description and history of the course.   But you never know.  

____________________________________________________

Dr. Jay,

Nice to see you are now behaving reasonably, but might I ask why the sudden resurgence in interest on your part?   After all, you wanted nothing to do with this entire line of reasoning yesterday.  A waste of time, I think you said, and "wild surmises and agendas," among other things.  What happened?  
______________________________________________

Mr. Stamm, that really is a lucid, even-handed, respectful, and intelligent assessment.  And your kinda cute too, so I will take that under advisement as well if you know what I mean.   Who would've wondered whether Wee Willie Watson was worthy?   Aside from those pesky Southern Californians and the omnipotent Tom MacWood, that is?

Seriously, in my email the other day I forgot all about the early hotel golf in Pasadena and the article posted by MacWood reminded me.   The early nine hole might have been either the course of the Hotel Raymond or The Green.   I'll have see if I can dig that stuff up.

______________________________________

Tom Paul,

I hate to be a Flemma, but I believe the name is Edward Sayres, not Richard Sayers.  Perhaps that is why you guys couldn't find the Scrapbooks.  You had the name wrong.  

I am not sure what you are doing on this thread.   You've brought no new information, have nothing really to offer to the topic at hand, yet here you are, trying to make the conversation about you and your pet projects.   If you want to talk about your article, why don't you start a thread?

[TEPaul]

"I hate to be a Flemma, but the name is Edward Sayres, not Richard Sayers."


Thanks for pointing that out. It is Edward Sayers, the long time secretary of MCC and soon to be its president when he gave that speech that so impressed MCC they asked him to publish it. Richard Sayers is a friend of mine who was the president of Huntingdon Valley GC a few years ago.  



" If you want to talk about your article, why don't you start a thread?"


Because I'm also talking about William Watson who some believe is arguably the architect of the White Bear Yacht Club golf course, the subject of this particular thread!   

[DMoriarty]

"I hate to be a Flemma, but the name is Edward Sayres, not Richard Sayers."


Thanks for pointing that out. It is Edward Sayers, the long time secretary of MCC and soon to be its president when he gave that speech that so impressed MCC they asked him to publish it. Richard Sayers is a friend of mine who was the president of Huntingdon Valley GC a few years ago.

No.  It is Edward Sayres.  Not Sayers.   I know who he was and what he wrote.  In fact I sent the speech or a description of it to Wayne.   I don't know Richard Sayers. 

" If you want to talk about your article, why don't you start a thread?"


Because I'm also talking about William Watson who some believe is arguably the architect of the White Bear Yacht Club golf course, the subject of this particular thread!   

Really, because it doesn't seem that you know a lick about Willie Watson except what Tom MacWood has taught you.  As I said above, if he is of interest to you why don't you go do some research?