[JESII]

Jamie and Tom,

I feel completely opposite about the strategic options at PV versus Merion.

I have argued often on here that I think Pine Valley is the most phenomenal golf course creation I have ever see but from a strategic perspective I can't think of a single hole location that offers a real measurable advantage to being on the border of a fairway as opposed to the dead center.

I take your point about the narrowness of Merion's fairways but I think just about every green has at least one hole location that offers a real distinct advantage to challenging (and succeeding) the edge of the fairway.

#1 - the back right pin
#2 - anything hard on the left really favors the wedge from the right edge of the fairway
#4 - the back left pin is nearly inaccessible from the center to left of the fairway
#5 - every yard closer to the creek offers a measurably improved chance to hit the green
#6 - the back left pin
#7 - the back left pin would demand a ridiculous shot from the center of the fairway (at 120 yards) but just 12 - 15 yards to the right and it makes sense
#8 - everything looks better from the right corner of the fairway
#10 - actually has a couple - both back corners really favor a properly positioned tee shot
#11 - back left corner
#12 - maybe no real advantage because going up to the left edge moves the ball well below your feet
#14 - depending on how far you can hit it, both back corners would seem to demand a tee shot properly placed on the opposite edge of the fairway to access
#15 - hard right
#16 - maybe not much difference here
#18 - maybe not here either, but I think the story goes that Hogan (after receiving advice to hit it at the flagpole) said you need to drive it 8 yards right of the flagpole because you get a flat lie...can't say I've ever felt I hit it 8 yards right of the flagpole...


The only two I can think of at all at Pine Valley are number 9 to a hard left pin (on the left green) 7 to a hard right pin on the lay up...I'm sure there are others, what are they?

[Brian Phillips]

I have argued often on here that I think Pine Valley is the most phenomenal golf course creation I have ever see but from a strategic perspective I can't think of a single hole location that offers a real measurable advantage to being on the border of a fairway as opposed to the dead center.

I take your point about the narrowness of Merion's fairways but I think just about every green has at least one hole location that offers a real distinct advantage to challenging (and succeeding) the edge of the fairway.

Sully,

I agree completely.

I have one other question to you all.  Are Merion's fairways really that narrow?  It is not as if they are mowed to 20 yards and then rough starts.

Not only is what side of a fairway more important on most holes at Merion but also har far up you are.  If I remember correctly many of PV greens have quite wide entrances whereas a number of Merions are angled greens away from the fairway.

Or am I not remembering the courses correctly.  Sorry if I am, I have only played PV twice and Merion 3 or 4 times.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

This thing about the strategic importance of being on one side of a fairway (or whatever) to be really meaningful at either PV or Merion East is of course one of degree but as Jamie said and I completely agree with and for years the real importance of it comes about depending on how firm and fast either of those courses are.

In other words, it wasn't particularly important during the Walker Cup because that Friday deluge just about completely took out the strategic significance of it. But had the rain stayed away and had Matt Shaeffer been able to present that course the way it was before the rains came of course it would've been a whole lot more important to those players to position their shots around the course for the next shot.

Let's take a few examples:

On #6 to that left center Sunday pin none of those players from the left side would've been able to go at that pin from the left side and on #10 I doubt many would've been able to hold a drive on that green anywhere. Stuff like that makes a significant strategic difference to players like that. And the rest of the course would've been some degree of the same thing or same strategic theme around the course.

It's just such a shame those rains came because had they not there would have been so much of interest for us to talk about on here on the "strategic" significance of a truly ideal maintainence meld (really firm and fast throughout) on a golf course like that one.

[TEPaul]

Brian:

Over-all Merion East's architecture utililizes quite a bit more architectural "angle" or angling than PV does. As for open or closed approaches to greens both courses are pretty equal (7-8 closed (forced carry) approaches to greens) which is actually a whole lot for courses of that age and era.

The reason? In my opinion, it was because both were very much intended to be and designed to be what back then was referred to as "shot testing" courses (championship designs?)----and forced aerial carries into a number of greens was considered to be back then part of an all around "shot testing" design prescription!

It has never been lost on me (and sort of amusing to me) that a fairly good number of the architectural analysts on here seem to think that for a golf course of any era to be a really good "strategic" (optional) design that it should offer a run-in or bounce in open approach option of some kind or from some angle on just about every hole.

Perhaps they are right about that in some way but it surely is true to say that the likes of Hugh Wilson at Merion East or George Crump at Pine Valley definitely DID NOT agree with that architectural prescription----eg at least not on those two courses!  

[JESII]

Tom,

I tried to give examples on each hole at Merion in which a particular pin placement will practically force a good player to make a decision a shot in advance if they want to get near it on their approach. I feel comfortable with my examples, I was hoping you and Jamie (and anyone else) would continue the discussion by providing examples at Pine Valley that really strongly suggest to a good player that they get in a particular edge of the fairway in  order to think about approaching a particular hole location.

Obviously firm fairways and greens are going to escalate that strategy but we still can discuss.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

Sure we can continue to discuss. All I'm saying is that kind of discussion hole by hole so much depends on the degree of receptivity or lack of it (firm and fast or the Ideal Maintenance Meld).

But if you would like we could use opposite ends of that spectrum----eg the way Merion East played strategically in the Walker Cup (because of that deluge on Friday) compared to how it would have played strategically fsor players like that the way the course was before that rain.

I have a feeling a number of us on this website who have enough experience over the years with the architectural/strategic nuances of that course could have a pretty intelligent discussion about that kind of thing and what the strategic differences would've been for players of that caliber.

[PThomas]

i hope you all continue this discussion...very good so far and is what GCA is supposed to be all about

[JESII]

Tom,

I am happy to discuss any topic you want but thought we were comparing and contrasting the strategic options of Merion versus Pine Valley.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

We could do that but personally I'd be more interested in discussing the strategic options (or the meaning of them) of either or both courses or comparing them when either course is playing with a pretty firm and fast setup. I just think that is more interesting and perhaps educational and informative because that kind of application tends to truly highlight and increase the effects in play of results or it increases the available options no matter what kind of player we're talking about.

[Sean Leary]

If they widen the fairways at Merion, and it plays firm and fast, does it get ripped up by the pros? I think it would be better for daily play for sure.

I wonder if the narrow fairways date back to when the course was 6300 yards and short for the US Open then that they decided to narrow the fairways. When was the last known time of the fairways being signficantly wider there?

[JESII]

If they widen the fairways at Merion, and it plays firm and fast, does it get ripped up by the pros? I think it would be better for daily play for sure.

In my opinion, the answer would lie in the comfort level the USGA has with respect to a little bit of brown. Based on my viewing, they seem comfortable letting their US Open courses get brown when the weather dictates and in that circumstance they could have fairway height grass over the entire property and they wouldn't threaten 10 under.  The minute amount of syringing required for a course to play firm and foast WHILE REMAINING green is enough to give the control back to the players.

Shinnecock on Thursday and Friday is a good example and Merion (at its current length) would provide a sterner test if the fairways and greens were as firm.

[George Pazin]

[...in that circumstance they could have fairway height grass over the entire property and they wouldn't threaten 10 under.  The minute amount of syringing required for a course to play firm and foast WHILE REMAINING green is enough to give the control back to the players.

Now this I would pay good money to see! I speculated the same about Oakmont, but I don't expect either to allow us to perform the experiment any time soon...

Fascinating discussion on this thread, thanks everyone.

[JESII]

George,

I haven't been to Oakont, but I bet you're correct...Oakmont was actually on my mind because it seemed so green (and really firm) on TV. Was it the TV resolution? Or do the cool nights help keep the grass greener?

[Joe Bausch]

If I could go back in time to 1916 and tee it up at Merion, I would be so anxious to play the original 13th.  The description and a couple of pictures I've seen of it suggests it was a wonderful par 3.  In the wintertime at Merion, when the brush is minimal, it is easy to envision the hole and how much the creek would have been in play.

[JESII]

Joe,

While I called the present 13th a perfect short par 3 the other day, I too would be really interested to see the original.

[George Pazin]

George,

I haven't been to Oakont, but I bet you're correct...Oakmont was actually on my mind because it seemed so green (and really firm) on TV. Was it the TV resolution? Or do the cool nights help keep the grass greener?

It wasn't nearly as green as it appeared on TV. I think TV does something that makes green look greener!

[JESII]

I've heard that.

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, Cool nights help the grass become more rigid. I started noticing it a couple of weeks ago.

Two threads are colliding on this topic of fairway firmness. Lawrence Largent just made an interesting observation on the Padraig Harrington thread.


 

[ChipOat]

Joe Bausch,

You could actually PLAY the original 13th hole until mid-1971 (and I have done it many times).  The old 12th and 13th greens were maintained in pretty good shape as practice greens until the space was needed for the two hospitality tents during the 1971 U.S. Open and the original 13th tee box was visible not far from the P&W railroad tracks (although it wasn't maintained).  Back then, people often hit their own shag balls (so did touring pro's) and many a fatted practice shot with a short iron has ended up in Rae's Creek in front of the old 13th green (including some of mine) between 1924 and 1971.

And ,yes, there were exactly TWO hospitality tents at the 1971 Open.  PNB had the larger one and an insurance company (INA, I think) had the other.

[Dan Herrmann]

Please ignore if this is a goofy question - but the only knock I had with the course setup was the area to the right of #6.  I thought the grass was way too gnarly and thick - I'd prefer to see it much shorter.  I just didn't understand why it was SO long there.

(By the way, what IS that iron "trellace" structure over there on the right of #6 that heads out towards Ardmore Ave.?)

---------
Oh yeah - major kudos to Matt S...  He and his crew performed a miracle getting that golf course in shape after the deluges we've had this summer.

[JESII]

Please ignore if this is a goofy question - but the only knock I had with the course setup was the area to the right of #6.  I thought the grass was way too gnarly and thick - I'd prefer to see it much shorter.  I just didn't understand why it was SO long there.

Just imagine it were a stone wall with a town on the other side...

[TEPaul]

"When was the last known time of the fairways being signficantly wider there?"

Sean Leary:

The fairways of Merion East apparently got significantly and dedicatedly narrowed going into the 1971 US Open and according to a long time Merion Green Chairman even the awareness that they had not been taken back out did not really occur to the club for just about thirty years.
 
 
 

[JESII]

Sully:

We could do that but personally I'd be more interested in discussing the strategic options (or the meaning of them) of either or both courses or comparing them when either course is playing with a pretty firm and fast setup. I just think that is more interesting and perhaps educational and informative because that kind of application tends to truly highlight and increase the effects in play of results or it increases the available options no matter what kind of player we're talking about.

Tom,

Why don't you start it up...how do you see a hole like #2 at Merion changing strategically based on the firmness of the golf course through the green?  For any level golfer you want.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Why don't you start it up...how do you see a hole like #2 at Merion changing strategically based on the firmness of the golf course through the green?  For any level golfer you want."



Sully:

Actually #2 is a good one to pick for me for a lot of reasons!

I see it changing strategically based on firmness through the green (and on the green) in that it would be somewhat harder to keep the ball on that fairway (than the softer "through the green" conditions in the actual Walker Cup after that Friday deluge).

(I'd be glad to explain later the remarkable differences in distance in the way that hole now plays compared to the US Open of 1981)

On Saturday most of those players could actually hit the green in two with utility woods (on Sunday basically no one could because they were into about a 5-10mph wind). If the course was as firm and fast both "through the green" and on the greens as it was before the Friday deluge I doubt they could've held the ball on that green with utility woods if the ball actually landed anywhere on the green (even despite how deep it is but at a gentle right to left angle to the basic line of play). That wasn't a problem with the softer conditions after the rain!

With the extreme firm and fast conditions Merion had before the rain I doubt even a third shot wedge could've held the green to that left center pin position on Saturday that is pretty well covered by the left green side bunkers except from the extreme right side of the fairway on a third shot. But with the conditions after the Friday rain those players would have no problem throwing the ball substantially behind a pin like that and sucking it back. That was an option that would not have been available if the course was playing as firm and fast on the greens as Matt Shaeffer had it and wanted to have it for the Walker Cup.

Hope that helps. Ask away about anything I just said. My take is that the strategies those Walker Cuppers would have used on that hole vs the way it was after the rain would have been pretty substantially different and to me that is most of the beauty of a truly ideal MM that Shaeffer had on that course before the rain came.

I said it on here before but I'm just so disappointed that Friday deluge did come because had it not over 6,000 spectators on site and thousands more on TV would have really seen something they rarely do see in golf and strategic golf! It was such a wonderful opportunity to show the world what truly F&F can do but alas Mother Nature stepped in at the last minute and wiped most all of it out!

Frankly I just can't imagine how disappointed Matt Shaeffer must have been about that but I did talk to him briefly on Saturday and as he almost always is he was completely upbeat and laughing anyway!

[JESII]

For that level player, is it fair to give them 20 yards of roll on their tee shot if the ground had remained firm? It is a bit uphill at that point...

From 20 yards closer than you saw them, what club are they hitting? Could they have help the green with that club?

If you were coaching...and the ground was really firm...and the pin was hard in that back left corner...would it make sense to suggest to these guys to play the hole as a three shotter (FROM THE TEE) for their best chance to make a 4?

In other words, is there a spot deep up in the right corner of the lay up area that opens up the back left pin enough to make that approach easier than the pitch/bunker shot if they miss the green with a long second shot?   AND, if so, is the risk of finding that lay up area along Ardmore Ave. worth the reward of an easier wedge shot when compared to the risk / reward of going after the green in two with a club that likely will not hold the green?

Hope that was clear, but ask away about anything I just said...

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